There's really not an applicable forum for this one. But here goes.......
I'm loading Speer shot capsules into .44-40 Starline brass as a substitute load for the century-plus year old .44XL shotgun. Available, suitable powders are AA#7 and AA#9. My capsule weight is 230 grains. I'm needing to get 1100-1300 fps from the capsule. But data for this sort of nonsense is basically non-existent. I found a recipe that called for 12 grains of AA#7 for a 230 grain lead cast bullet. But, with this un (Iver Johnson Champion single shot) being a smoothbore.........wouldn't that generate less pressure and therefore allow me to work beyond the 12 grains ?? Being that the gun is a pretty strong action, would that also bear into the charge weights which are formulated for a lot of the weaker guns the .44-40 was chambered in ??
TIA for any and all thoughts on this. 40-some years of reloading and I'm scratching my head over this one.
I think your limiting factor would be the 44-40 case. IIRC that is the reason you can't load the 45LC to 44Mag pressures even in a firearm that is strong enough to handle it, the cases are not made to handle the higher pressure. OTOH I have never experimented with any of that so I might be completely full of bullstuff.
Last edited by Blacktailer; 04/27/22.
I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all. Jack O'Connor
I think your limiting factor would be the 44-40 case............even in a firearm that is strong enough to handle it, the cases are not made to handle the higher pressure.
You could be totally right.
I don't even know what the safe pressure limit would be on the Iver Johnson Champion action. I'm assuming it's a pretty strong piece and most likely the same action that was used for the .410 Champion. Even with QuickLoad or similar, I wonder how you'd ever get an accurate representation of what's going on.
I guess I just start conservatively and see what happens. I guess.............
I have a clapped out boat anchor .45-70 trapdoor with faint traces of rifling, my Dad and I have been shooting .410 shotshells in it since the 1920's. Our experience, which does not apply to your question obviously, is that high velocity destroys any semblance of a pattern. Handloads of low power/velocity produce usable patterns and sufficient killing power for a garden gun as the English call them. Also have a Lee Metford single shot bolt action that shoots 2 1/2 inch .410...same thing, high velocity is useless, low velocity gives good patterns and kills ground squirrels and jackrabbits at 30 yards. I am curious what you want to do with such a tiny shot load at 1100 to 1300 fps.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
I am curious what you want to do with such a tiny shot load at 1100 to 1300 fps.
Well.............. I baffled the ballistician at Hodgdon/Accurate Powder, too. Basically, there's way too many variables in my equation AND he had never even heard of the 44XL cartridge.
What I'm fixing to do with it is shoot a spring gobbler. I'm loading 19g/cc #10 tungsten shot. This will be a 50 foot and under proposition as the barrel has no choke constriction and the lead 9's I've patterned run out of pattern density at that distance. But I need enough velocity to drive pellets through a big bird's head and neck.
You are not concerned that the tungsten shot is going to damage the bore?
Not particularly. This is going to be an adventure of very few shots. Like, maybe 3-5 total. The Ivers were made of some pretty decent steel. And I'm not dealing with the tungsten having to compress down through a choked portion of the barrel, so........ Should be safe to bust a limited quantity of them off.
Also....... I'm not sure when the plastic shot capsule disintegrates. But there should be some protection offered there.
You’re biggest hurdle to increased pressure loads will probably be the large and most likely sloppy fitting firing pin. I bet the primers will flow or pierce well before you have to worry about the action strength.
You’re biggest hurdle to increased pressure loads will probably be the large and most likely sloppy fitting firing pin. I bet the primers will flow or pierce well before you have to worry about the action strength.
I guess we fixin' to find out.
I'm leaning toward a 12 grain charge of AA#9 to start with. That should be lower pressure than the AA#7 and a little more volume to keep ignition a little more reliable. The shot capsule takes up a lot of room in the casing. There's not going to be too much room to go way overboard with powder.
Ok, I have also been down a couple of these "just because I want to" roads.
I spent a couple weeks one spring trying to find a suitable Red Wasp load for a .410 that would not damage the wood in the eaves of the house.
Federal loads their #9 TSS .410 loads @ 1100 fps. I don't see the point of loading any faster? At your self imposed limit of 50', slower will probably give a better pattern. Penetration should be simple enough to test with a target backer while doing pattern testing.
Speer recommends relatively fast burning powers for shot capsules used with lead shot. Loaded with tungsten shot they are going to be a lot heaver, and a slower powder may be in order?
I would "assume" this loaded capsule is going to act more like the ejecta of a shot-shell than like a solid lead projectile? With that in mind I would approach this as a shot-shell load.
Your loaded capsule weighs 230 grains, which is just over the nominal 1/2 oz of a standard 2 1/2" .410 bore load.
Iffin I was doing this I would try W296 since I have a lifetime supply, that I use for .410 skeet loads.
I'm sure 1100 fps would be sufficient. Maybe I'm over-thinking that part.
I've loaded a fair number of .44 Mag and .401 Herter's rounds. Generally, I always thought AA#9, H-110 and W-296 to be almost identical triplets when it came to burn rate and performance. Maybe I'm off on that. But, I do have H-110 on hand, so......... Maybe another thought.
I think your limiting factor would be the 44-40 case. IIRC that is the reason you can't load the 45LC to 44Mag pressures even in a firearm that is strong enough to handle it, the cases are not made to handle the higher pressure. OTOH I have never experimented with any of that so I might be completely full of bullstuff.
Ruger publishes 45LC data for modern Rugers that match 44Mag performance levels, so it's not the cases, it the old firearms.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
You’re biggest hurdle to increased pressure loads will probably be the large and most likely sloppy fitting firing pin. I bet the primers will flow or pierce well before you have to worry about the action strength.
What many folks are missing here are the 44 Winchester High Velocity loads manufactured from 1903 to 1938 and sold until at least 1942 and seen as late as 1945. That is nearly 42 years of service. These loads produced up to 22,000 cup chamber pressures while normal loads produced 13,000 cup.
You will far exceed revolver max loads before seeing any hint of high pressure signs on the primers.
You’re biggest hurdle to increased pressure loads will probably be the large and most likely sloppy fitting firing pin. I bet the primers will flow or pierce well before you have to worry about the action strength.
What many folks are missing here are the 44 Winchester High Velocity loads manufactured from 1903 to 1938 and sold until at least 1942 and seen as late as 1945. That is nearly 42 years of service. These loads produced up to 22,000 cup chamber pressures while normal loads produced 13,000 cup.
You will far exceed revolver max loads before seeing any hint of high pressure signs on the primers.
I wasn’t referring to the primer being the weak point. Shotguns, especially cheap single shots that are a century old, generally speaking have large firing pins that fit poorly in the hole in the breech. It doesn’t take an over pressure load to flow a primer into that oversize hole.
You’re biggest hurdle to increased pressure loads will probably be the large and most likely sloppy fitting firing pin. I bet the primers will flow or pierce well before you have to worry about the action strength.
What many folks are missing here are the 44 Winchester High Velocity loads manufactured from 1903 to 1938 and sold until at least 1942 and seen as late as 1945. That is nearly 42 years of service. These loads produced up to 22,000 cup chamber pressures while normal loads produced 13,000 cup.
You will far exceed revolver max loads before seeing any hint of high pressure signs on the primers.
I wasn’t referring to the primer being the weak point. Shotguns, especially cheap single shots that are a century old, generally speaking have large firing pins that fit poorly in the hole in the breech. It doesn’t take an over pressure load to flow a primer into that oversize hole.
