Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire How Long Until the Rapture?

2nd Corinthians 6:14-18

What does “offended” even mean?

God can defend Himself; to my chagrin He has had to defend Himself against me. When I remember the grace shown me I have a lot less to worry about re: others.

Still, I do enjoy theological discussions with some on this site… many with whom I disagree on finer points while agreeing on the main thing.

…that is, that Christ died for sinners, among whom I’m chief.

Oh and the rapture.

All passages used by dispensationalists to point to a rapture are actually references to the second coming. Once you let loose of the heretical position that God is a philandering wife with two brides (Israel & the Church) then such misinterpretation is unnecessary.

The Church are all of those who looked (both ahead & back) to Christ in faith for redemption. Paul makes this crystal clear in his letters to the saints in Rome & those in Galatia, as well as the author of Hebrews in chapter 11.

There is no such thing as a rapture. We look forward to our Lord’s second coming in which He shall judge the living and the dead. Period.

Amen. That’s a good interpretation of salvation, the church and the 2nd coming.

Now you went and ruint everything. ;-{>8

I'm typing this from above the clouds - I was raptured i feel really sorry for all you poor basterds left behind

The Rapture .... is false doctrine invented by false prophets

I'll be a good human and start by educating the gullible ones.Your comments sound like a poster for the W.H.O, a pack of crooks I have worked for incidentally.


More people are in poverty than ever before.
There are more slums than ever before.
There is less personal ownership of land than ever before.
There is less drinkable water than any time before.
100 world leaders are classed as humans rights abusers.
There IS NO LAND LEFT for humans who want to break away from a state, city, county or even village. Meaning there is no freedom from oppression if you cant win a war.

This the major human or natural or god given right most humans have lost incidentally. In the 100 countries, or 3/4 of the human population classed as corrupt 3rd world dumps, you have no freedom. You cant even go back to nature and live because someone owns that land and will want rent. Just the water in most of these countries is loaded with bugs from human faeces. The poorer 2/3 of the world had better living standards and options in the 19th century.

Nearly 2,000 years ago they said 'soon'.....................

Anyone confused by the notion of two covenants would do well to read the book "Jesus and Israel: One Covenant or Two?" by David Holwerda. I very good summary of which appears on the Ligonier Ministry website:


Every year, thousands of Christian books are published worldwide. Of those thousands, there are usually only a small handful that are worth reading. Of those that are worth reading, there are only a few that are worth reading repeatedly. David Holwerda's Jesus & Israel: One Covenant or Two? is one of those rare few. The basic purpose of Holwerda's book is to examine the topic of promise and fulfillment in Scripture from a Reformed, covenantal perspective. In order to thoroughly deal with this significant topic, each chapter of the book is devoted to addressing one specific issue that sheds light on the relationship between Jesus and Israel. The topics that are addressed include, for example, the temple, the land, and the law. Though not an explicitly stated purpose of the book, the examination of these issues from a covenantal perspective also provides a very helpful contrast with the popular dispensationalist ideas of promise and fulfillment.

The first chapter of the book is titled "Jesus and Israel in the Twentieth Century." In this chapter, Holwerda asks a crucial question: "How should one write or speak about Jesus and Israel after the Holocaust?" (p. 6). He notes the fact that it has become more difficult since World War II for Christians to deal with issues related to Israel because "the contemporary Church encounters modern Israel with a guilty conscience" (p. 6). Holwerda observes that many scholars have sought to alleviate this guilt and foster dialogue with representatives of Judaism by glossing over the unique claims of Christ. While acknowledging that the Church has been guilty of anti-semitic words and actions in past centuries, Holwerda rightly rejects the claims of these liberal Christians, pointing out that Christianity simply cannot give up the claim that Jesus is the Messiah without giving up Christianity itself. Following this necessary introductory chapter, Holwerda proceeds to outline the main questions that will be asked and answered in the remaining chapters of the book:

Who is Jesus?
What is His relationship to Israel and the Old Testament with its law and its promises?
What is His relationship to the promises concerning the temple, the land, and Jerusalem?
What should Jews and Gentiles think of Him?
In chapter two, Holwerda deals with the most basic question: "Who is Israel?" This chapter lays the foundation for the remainder of the book because the answer to this question dramatically affects the interpretation of all prophecy. Holwerda devotes the bulk of chapter two to an examination of the Gospel of Matthew because this Gospel in particular is an extended answer to the question: "Who is Israel?" Through a careful and fascinating look at various passages in Matthew, Holwerda concludes that Jesus is the true Israel. In the opening genealogy, for example, Matthew links Jesus to Abraham and David in order to show that the promises of blessing given to Abraham and David are now being fulfilled in and through Jesus, the true Son of Abraham and the true Son of David. Jesus is a "corporate person" who represents a group of people (Israel) and in whom that group of people is representatively embodied (p. 34).

Matthew's answer to the question, "Who is Israel?" is also indicated through his geographical references. What happened to Israel in the past provides types of the person and life of Jesus. The threat to his life as an infant, the flight to Egypt, and the time in the wilderness all parallel events in the history of Israel. As Holwerda notes, the recognition of this fact helps to explain Matthew's use of such prophesies as Hosea 11:1 (cf. Matt. 2:14ff.). If the entire context of Hosea 11 is examined, it can be seen that exile for Israel was not God's final word. God promised a new exodus by means of which He would create His new people. Matthew's use of this prophecy in connection with Jesus shows that this long awaited new exodus has begun with His coming (p. 40).

Matthew also records the words God speaks from heaven in 3:17 and 17:5. In both passages, God says, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The language reflects Isaiah 42:1, a passage in which God promises to place His Spirit on His servant to enable Him to complete His messianic work and bring salvation to the world. Matthew records these words from heaven at Jesus' baptism. What this means, according to Holwerda, is that the "story of Jesus' baptism is intended to proclaim Jesus as God's anointed servant (p. 43). In Isaiah, the servant is "both Israel and the one who by representing Israel renews Israel" (p. 43). Jesus is the One who fulfills the role originally assigned to the nation of Israel - to be a light to the nations.

The identity of Jesus as the true Israel raises an important question. If He has taken the place of the Old Testament nation of Israel, what is the status of this nation? As Holwerda observes, "Continued possession of promises cannot be maintained apart from the faith that God gives to His people" (p. 54). This is indicated in Matthew in chapters 11-13 where the consequences of covenant breaking and faithlessness are spelled out. Who, then is Israel? Holwerda explains the answer.

Jesus, a literal descendant of Abraham, himself a Jew, is the Israel who is the object of God's love. He is chosen by God and responds in perfect obedience, fulfilling the law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17) and all righteousness (3:15). Since Jesus is the corporate representative of Israel, God now recognizes as Israel all who respond in faith and obedience to the presence and will of God revealed in Jesus. Of course, the first to so respond are in fact Jews. Jesus' condemnation of Israel is not a blanket condemnation of all Jews but only of those who do not believe. The crowds that follow him do not receive from him the same radical judgment as is pronounced on the leaders of the nation. Instead, Jesus has compassion on the crowds as "sheep without a shepherd" and declares to his disciples that the harvest is plentiful (Matthew 9:36-38). So long as they do not reject Jesus, the possibility of becoming Jesus' disciples remains open to the people. Will they accept the definition of Israel and the fulfillment of the promises revealed in Jesus? Will they acknowledge the presence of God and the arrival of the kingdom in the person and ministry of Jesus? Will they comprehend the mystery of the kingdom? That was and continues to be the only question that decides the identity of Israel: Not ancestry but faith, not human achievement but God's gift, calling and election, acknowledged in Jesus, son of Abraham, son of David, Son of God (pp. 56-57)

In chapter three, Holwerda discusses the temple, asking whether prophecy requires the rebuilding of a temple of stone on the site of the previous temples in Jerusalem. After carefully examining the history of the Old Testament temples and the temple promises, he observes that Jesus' ministry fulfills all that the temple symbolized. Jesus is the true temple of God, and those who are in Christ are part of this temple (cf. 1 Cor. 3:16ff.; 2 Cor. 6:16-7:1; Eph. 2:20-22). Chapter four is devoted to the highly controversial issue of the land promises. Holwerda points out that while the land promises are irrevocable, they are also conditional. Israel cannot claim that she has a "right" to the land. The land belongs to God and remains His even when Israel possesses it (cf. Lev. 25:23). Israel may only continue to possess God's gift of the land by keeping the covenant (Deut. 4:25ff.). As Holwerda observes, "maintianing possession of the land while violating the stipulations of the covenant is utterly impossible" (p. 92). " A holy land cannot tolerate an unholy people and it will vomit Israel out when Israel defiles the land just as it vomited out the wicked nations before Israel entered the land (Lev. 18:28)" (p. 93). In Israel's past, she was driven out of the land by God for idolatry (Hos. 9:1-3) and for oppressing widows, orphans, foreigners, and the poor (Zech. 7:8-14). In order to maintain possession of the land, God's people must be holy even as He is holy (p. 95). The New Testament indicates that the land promises have now been universalized. They are no longer focused on the particular land of Palestine. They now include the whole earth (cf. Rom. 4:13; Eph. 6:2). In addition, the New Testament points out that the heir of the promises is no longer the particular nation of Israel but Christ and all who are in Him by faith (Gal. 3:16, 29). Holwerda notes:

The conditions for inheriting the land are fulfilled only in Jesus and since He is the temple where God dwells, the New Testament locates Jerusalem where Jesus is. Jesus is in heaven and so is Jerusalem. Claims to citizenship are established by faith in Christ, and hence the members of the Church, the body of Christ, are also citizens of that city. Both the Church and the new Jerusalem are called the bride of Christ, indicating that the members of the Church and the citizens of that city are the same (2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 22:2, 9; 22:17) (p. 111).

Holwerda turns to the question of the law in chapter five. What happens to the law when Jesus comes? Christians have suggested a number of widely differing answers over the centuries. Jesus Himself says, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17). Jesus came to fulfill the Prophets, and He came to fulfill the law. What does this "fulfillment" mean? Holwerda offers a helpful explanation.

With regard to the prophets, Jesus' announcement is not so difficult to understand, even though Matthew's own presentation of the fulfillment of certain prophecies may be very complex. Fulfillment of prophecies means simply that the reality promised in the prophetic word becomes an actual event in human history. What then is the fulfillment of the law? Obviously this fulfillment happens when the righteousness articulated in the law similarly becomes reality in human history. The law is an articulation, under the specific circumstances in which Israel lived, of the righteousness that will cover the face of the earth. Therefore, fulfillment of the law entails a realization in history of the righteousness articulated in the law. To bring that about was the intention and achievement of Jesus' mission.

In chapter six, Holwerda raises the question of a future for Jewish Israel. If Jesus is the One through whom all of the promises are fulfilled, then what possible place could there be for Jewish Israel? Holwerda addresses this question by examining Paul's answer to the question in Romans 9-11. Holwerda points out that Paul approaches the problem of Jewish Israel from two-angles. First, Paul points out that God has not rejected His people because even now there is a believing remnant. The remnant is now being saved, but the rest have been hardened (Rom. 11:7). Yet, according to Paul, even this judgment upon the rest of Israel is not final. They have stumbled, but they have not fallen (Rom. 11:11ff.). All of this is been part of God's redemptive plan. Israel's hardening led to salvation for the Gentiles. The salvation of the Gentiles will lead to jealousy and ultimately a removal of the hardening on the part of the rest of Israel. According to Holwerda, "all Israel" in Romans 11:26, "refers to Jewish Israel in its eschatological fullness" (p. 170). It is not merely the sum total of the Jewish remnant over the centuries. 'The remnant holds out hope for the rest" (p. 176).

The strength's of Holwerda's book are many. It offers insight into the meaning of Scripture on virtually every page. It is almost futile to underline the most helpful parts of the book without underlining every sentence. His examination of the centrality of Jesus in the fulfillment of the Old Covenant promises is a crucial antidote to the rampant dispensationalist hermeneutic that virtually bypasses consideration of Christ as the true "seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:16). His outline of Paul's argument in Romans 11 is also particularly good. The book is not only extremely insightful, it is also very clearly written. While offering numerous avenues of exploration for seasoned scholars, it is also readily accessible to students and serious laymen. Holwerda's choice of topics is also particularly helpful since the promises related to the land, the law, and the temple are some of the most disputed points of biblical interpretation among conservative Christian scholars today.

There is only one issue that I believe should have been addressed more explicitly and thoroughly in the book and that is what the attitude of the Church toward the modern state of Israel should be. Since many Christians today see the formation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 as a direct fulfillment of biblical prophecy, and since this belief leads many Christians to give virtually unqualified support to the modern Israeli government, it would have been helpful to see how Holwerda would have applied the principles outlined in his book to this issue. Are modern Jews, for example, still the true heirs of the land promise regardless of their continued unbelief in Jesus Christ? Even if Israel has a claim to the land promises apart from faith in Jesus Christ, does she have a claim to the land promises apart from the Old Covenant stipulations attached to those promises? If Old Testament Israel was thrust out of the land for violating these stipulations, could the modern state of Israel also be thrust out of the land by God if she commits the same sins her ancestors committed—refusal to acknowledge God, oppression of widows, orphans, foreigners, etc.? How should the Western Church respond when Arab Christians in the territories occupied by the armies of Israel since 1967 complain of continual human rights abuses? These are important questions, and the principles outlined in Holwerda's book could provide some help as we grapple with them. I am not sure why Holwerda did not deal with this important question, especially since he devoted the entire first chapter of the book to an examination of the Church's interaction with modern Jews since the Holocaust. However, in spite of this one minor criticism, I strongly recommend Holwerda's Jesus & Israel to all who seek a better understanding of the nature of biblical promises and their fulfillment.

Dr. Keith Mathison is professor of Systematic Theology at Reformation Bible College.

If one is confused by the notion of 'two covenants' what needs to be read is:

Hebrews 8:13

10glocks, that dose not mean that I disagree with much quoted above....

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I’m on the Welcoming Committee..

So you think that verse says interracial couples are against God's will? Speechless.............

Hebrews 8:13 speaks to the covenant between God and Israel. The target audience of Hebrews were the Jews, who were under a notion that their laws and practices kept them in covenant with God, apart from Christ. But their practices never fuilfilled the covenant, a covenant which was only fulfilled completely by Christ.

Hebrews 11:13 speaks to that truth, that there has ever really only been one covenant from the beginning - faith in Christ. Abraham and Sarah knew it, and many others long before Christ knew it. And they died in that faith, before the promise was fulfilled, and were righteous for their faith.

Faith in Christ and Christ alone from the 1st day is the only covenant. It was God's plan from the beginning, as evidenced in Genesis when God promised a saviour, and that that Saviour, the woman's seed, would crush the head of the serpant.

My concern is that there is a segment of Christians out there that believe Jews are safe because they have some special, separate covenant apart from Christ. They don't, and never have. Because they were never perfect, nor could they be, and could not fulfill the covenant. Only Christ fulfills the covenant. And that was the plan all along, from before the foundation of the world.

It seems…to me anyways…that some have chosen to set aside the uniqueness of Jesus’ good news and traded it for a faith that is so blended with old covenant religion that it’s hardly recognizable as what Jesus and Paul taught. It seems…to me anyways…that some have chosen to bring in the legalistic and hypocritical religion of the Pharisees and call it ‘Christianity’. Who could blame anyone for leaving ‘that’…?

To me, Jesus clearly introduced a new movement, and He did so by instituting the New Covenant that the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah had predicted. And Jesus clearly gave his New Covenant movement a new command that would serve as the overriding ethic for His new movement ~ not only to love God and love other’s…which Jesus clearly said encompassed the entirety of the Law…but to love other’s as He loves us. He said ‘that’ was ‘the’ defining characteristic of His followers.

And, to me, the institution of His New Covenant had implications for the old one. God’s covenant with the Ancient Israelites at Mount Sinai had an expiration date ~ and the New Testament clearly points that out. When the New Covenant was instituted by Jesus, the old one became outdated and obsolete. It was time for it to be retired because something new and better was replacing it.

Dispensationalism is at the root of the Rapture Heresy. I’m working on memory but remember that the theology started in England, didn’t get traction and was imported to America.

It got traction here because the tradition of the Church in America is to find things that were supposedly hidden for 1800 years and mainstream those ideas.

Absolutely, all Americanized doctrines have had a negative impact on the faith. They have added nothing other than a weakening of the centrality of Christ, replacing Him with pragmatism, self awareness and self determination.

As it presently exists, the America Church doesn’t need Christ. Dispensationalism is a large part of that departure from the faith.