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Hey gang,

I have a male Labrador that has his obedience to the point that he is ready to be force fetch trained. Unfortunately, my family strongly objects to our dog living away from us for the month or more that is required to get him force fetch trained. My question is, how important is the force fetching process to making a good gun dog. Neither my Golden Retriever nor my Boykin were force fetch trained. Both were good gun dogs, IMHO, particularly the Boykin. A trainer buddy of mine is pretty insistent that I get him force fetch trained. What are the thoughts on here?

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Tim,
If your Lab is a natural enthusiastic retriever that shows no signs of hesitation on his retrieves then no need. If you demand absolute obedience in every instance, perhaps yes. Your Bud is a trainer, and like surgeons want to cut, trainers want to train. There will be pain involved in the process. Refusal will eliminate a Dog from a trial, which is why many are forced trained.

The answer will lie with your own expectations. If your Dog loves to retrieve, and can be counted on to make consistently successful attempts to do so, then I personally would not have him force fetched. And field work is different than trials, in that trials are more controlled...There are times in the field, when it would be wise to not have him go.

If this is you main concern...It isn't necessary. Good and perfection are two different expectations. And perfection is a hard mistress.

Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
My question is, how important is the force fetching process to making a good gun dog.


I hunt with a Bud that used to train...He thinks my Cockers not being trained to hupp...sitting.... to the flush is a major flaw. He thinks the Dog is not "finished". Trainers want to train. Mostly for their own personal satisfaction.

Last edited by battue; 05/03/22.

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Originally Posted by battue
Tim,
If you Lab is a natural enthusiastic retriever that shows no signs of hesitation on his retrieves then no need. If you demand absolute obedience in every instance, perhaps yes. Your Bud is a trainer, and like surgeons want to cut, trainers want to train. Their will be pain involved in the process. Refusal will eliminate a Dog from a trial, which is why many are forced trained.

The answer will lie with your own expectations. If your Dog loves to retrieve, and can be counted on to make consistently successful attempts to do so, then I personally would not have him force fetched. And field work is different than trials, in that trials are more controlled...There are times in the field, when it would be wise to not have him go.

If this is you main concern...It isn't necessary. Good and perfection are two different expectations. And perfection is a hard mistress.

Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
My question is, how important is the force fetching process to making a good gun dog.


I hunt with a Bud that used to train...He thinks my Cockers not being trained to hupp...sitting.... to the flush is a major flaw. He thinks the Dog is not "finished". Trainers want to train. Mostly for their own personal satisfaction.


Now you've gone and done it. You've injected common sense in a topic that is sure to be controversial. Time to duck and cover!

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Ton of material online and in books regarding the subject. Do it at home yourself. I started with a very strong drahthaar and it went great. Second one went easier and faster. Or don't do it. Up to you. Your dog.

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Great basic advice. f you're not going to run trials I would not bother and work on it yourself. Ive never had to force fetch any of my dogs but I am careful on choosing breeders.

I enjoy hunting with my dogs and they enjoy working with me


Originally Posted by WMR
Originally Posted by battue
Tim,
If you Lab is a natural enthusiastic retriever that shows no signs of hesitation on his retrieves then no need. If you demand absolute obedience in every instance, perhaps yes. Your Bud is a trainer, and like surgeons want to cut, trainers want to train. Their will be pain involved in the process. Refusal will eliminate a Dog from a trial, which is why many are forced trained.

The answer will lie with your own expectations. If your Dog loves to retrieve, and can be counted on to make consistently successful attempts to do so, then I personally would not have him force fetched. And field work is different than trials, in that trials are more controlled...There are times in the field, when it would be wise to not have him go.

If this is you main concern...It isn't necessary. Good and perfection are two different expectations. And perfection is a hard mistress.

Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
My question is, how important is the force fetching process to making a good gun dog.


I hunt with a Bud that used to train...He thinks my Cockers not being trained to hupp...sitting.... to the flush is a major flaw. He thinks the Dog is not "finished". Trainers want to train. Mostly for their own personal satisfaction.


Now you've gone and done it. You've injected common sense in a topic that is sure to be controversial. Time to duck and cover!

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I use to not do it 30 years ago. I have done it with the last three... I think it makes a more bid-able retriever...


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I write to concur in the well thought out reasoning of the majority here and write specially to note the following:

1. there's no shortage of people who will tell you how to train/hunt/own your own dog
2. the only one that really matters is you so raise/train/hunt your dog as you think best
3. anyone who thinks a dog should be trained to sit at the shot would lose a lot more pheasants than I do as a result of such an inane concept.

I haven't F/F any of mine and have found that the majority of people who think it must be done don't own dogs or hunt with them often and instead do a lot of their hunting while on the stool paging through FIeld and Stream.


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The surgeons I worked with had a saying — “better is the enemy of good.” While I’m no dog expert, this saying is appropriate for many other endeavors than surgery. The point is, always trying to improve something, can actually make it worse.

That’s worth at least 4 cents today. 😉

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My 7 month old started school last Monday.
I miss him, but I'm unable to train him properly.
I want a properly trained waterfowl dog, so here we go.
I will run hunt tests with him.
He's a nephew of my last boy, Trap.

Fetch means fetch.....

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I generally implement the forced retrieve in my dogs but not every time and for various reasons. I currently run pointing dogs, mainly setters and Continental breeds but started with Labs and have had two spaniels over the years.

The first reason, and the one everybody thinks of, is to enforce retrieving desire. This is important for those taking part in tests and trials as well as those who want/need/demand the dog to retrieve in all conditions. This would probably be important to those who hunt waterfowl over big water or moving waters particularly late in the year. This greater obedience is not only to have the dog retrieve when it may not feel like it but it will better allow one to call off the dog if conditions warrant. It could also be helpful for hunting geese were a fair number of birds may be retrieved in a day. I've seen this with snow geese where limits can be 20 or more birds per Hunter but a group hunting Canadas can run into a lot of birds where bag limits can be 5 birds per person.

Secondly, force fetch can help prevent hard mouth in a dog that is beginning to think of taking up that habit. I doubt it will break a habitual hard mouthed but it seems to lessen the odds of it happening if force fetch is started early. I do fore break all my VDD dogs as one of the requirements is to retrieve fur. As the desire to kill fur is fairly strong in these lines, that can carry over into retrieving fur. This may not be a major fault to some but I prefer having whatever is retrieved to have fewer holes in it. Especially fur that has some value as a pelt as I hate throwing money away.

The final reason, and one I feel most important, is force breaking helps enhance obedience. No matter how well the dog responded beforehand, they have responded better/faster/crisper afterward. This again helps in testing or trialling but I really appreciate the immediance of response when I need to divert the dog from a problem. This is particularly important with pointing breeds as they often work at a greater distance from the handler than flushing dogs.

If you decide on force training, I would do the force breaking myself. For the first timer I would look at hiring a local trainer to train you how to do it along with your dog. You will probably learn what not to do too, and not just in regards to force fetch? I personally feel going through the process together builds a better bond between dog and handler through more contact under harsher conditions than the norm. Your buddy might be willing to help you. I had a trainer help me with the first two dogs (Labs) and then again when I switched to pointing dogs. The one thing you must realize is that once started you will need to see it through to the end. Giving up may not teach the dog it is the boss but it will realize it does not necessarily have to obey and one will go backwards in obedience.

Force breaking is not difficult but one has to remember that the dog will Yelp, wail, bark, growl, or otherwise throw tantrums the degree of which depends on the method of force breaking used. Like breaking horses, where much of dog training terminology originated, there are two methods.

The one most commonly known is force breaking or fetching. It revolves around discomfort more than true pain. The dog will make all kinds of vocalizations but they are more out of unwillingness to accept the training than true pain. This is particularly true if using the ear pinch rather than toe pinch. It is not uncommon for the dog to go into hysterics if it sees the hand approach its head. It is also a reason I don't use this technique often.

The other method is gentle breaking. Like horses, it is slower and longer and best if started at a young age. I believe I first came across this method in North American Versatile Hunting Dog's "Green Book" training manual but I think it was dropped from the book a few decades back. Start with short easy retrieves done 1-3 times often through the day. Lengthen the retrieves slightly after the earlier ones are mastered. Switch out the retrieving item from bumpers as the dog gains confidence. I've used socks, blocks of wood, stuffed fire hose, hair brushes, empty soda cans, car keys, and whatever else I could find. It generally takes me 8 months to get a dog trained this way versus 6-8 weeks using toe pinch.

Which method to use depends on your dog's temperament, the goal(s) of the training, the time you wish to devote to the process, and your willingness to stick with it. If you are wishy-washy towards the process then it is probably not in your and your dog's best interest to start.

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I was just watching a video of hold conditioning. It seeks the same result without the pain of the ear or toe pinch. I may look into that method or forget it all together. I appreciate everyone chiming in on this.

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Hold conditioning is a form of gentle force fetch. It is still enforcing the dog to obedience, in this case to retrieve. Most dogs this will work well for, some dogs not so much. It can be a longer process compared to more typical force fetch which is a major reason it is not used much by trainers and many handlers.

I need to make a correction after I got taken to task for using the terms "force fetch" and "force breaking. The proper or current terminology is "trained retrieve" which is probably better as it encompasses all forms of enforcing the retrieve. I'm a bit old school so that change will probably not fully occur for me.

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Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
What are the thoughts on here?


As usual, my thoughts aren't gonna meld well with the gun dog crowd. I've never even needed to think about force fetching as a way to get a dog to retrieve. Not fan of compulsive training.Its not necessary.

Last edited by ingwe; 05/04/22.

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Trainers love to train trial dogs. It is what they do.

If pain is required, I am not interested.

I like hunting with dogs. The dogs like it too.

Enjoy your time afield.

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Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
Hey gang,

I have a male Labrador that has his obedience to the point that he is ready to be force fetch trained. Unfortunately, my family strongly objects to our dog living away from us for the month or more that is required to get him force fetch trained. My question is, how important is the force fetching process to making a good gun dog. Neither my Golden Retriever nor my Boykin were force fetch trained. Both were good gun dogs, IMHO, particularly the Boykin. A trainer buddy of mine is pretty insistent that I get him force fetch trained. What are the thoughts on here?


I don't force fetch my retrievers. It's unnecessary and part of an antiquated paradigm.

Look up Buck Shope he has a place down your way.

http://swiftriverretrievers.com/


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If the retrieval instinct is strong in the Dogs DNA….they will tell you at an early age if a field Dog needs force fetched. Some breeds start out ahead of others. If so, then your purpose is to make it fun. A fairly easy task for a Dog that lives in the house from day one.

Fetch most certainly means fetch, however if it’s in there one doesn’t need a lip pressed against a tooth, or the collar on continuous….the only way to stop the pain is to fetch. Another trick some use, to have the object brought to hand.

Some trainers will not always let you know how they arrive at the end. 😉



Last edited by battue; 05/05/22.

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Originally Posted by battue
If the retrieval instinct is strong in the Dogs DNA….they will tell you at an early age if a field Dog needs force fetched. Some breeds start out ahead of others. If so, then your purpose is to make it fun. A fairly easy task for a Dog that lives in the house from day one.





Exactamundo. And Ive had dogs that didn't demonstrate a fetching ability for some time. My last GSD showed no interest in it for 6 months, then-primarily by making it fun-he became a fetching machine. I usually will know they'll fetch when I do the evaluation as puppies at 6 and 8 weeks.


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Battue and Ingwe have it right.

The force fetch process is something I’d never want to put my best friend through, and those who do it are sick fuqks better suited to be torturers in Jap prison camps.


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Another thing I've found helpful is, under controlled conditions, involving a second dog in the process. Once Fido sees another dog pick up the dummy, he'll never drop it again. I do teach the "Hold" command, but do it slowly over weeks and have always gotten good delivery to hand. I couldn't care less about precision lining, so force is not really needed in my world.

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Originally Posted by battue
If the retrieval instinct is strong in the Dogs DNA….they will tell you at an early age if a field Dog needs force fetched. Some breeds start out ahead of others. If so, then your purpose is to make it fun. A fairly easy task for a Dog that lives in the house from day one.




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The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Originally Posted by battue
If the retrieval instinct is strong in the Dogs DNA….they will tell you at an early age if a field Dog needs force fetched. Some breeds start out ahead of others. If so, then your purpose is to make it fun. A fairly easy task for a Dog that lives in the house from day one.








And THAT is exactly how its done!


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We do the hallway confined fetch every day....and sometimes go outside...As long as I don't screw up, I think I can skip the force fetch... grin



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I will never not force fetch a dog again. It makes so-so dogs good and good dogs outstanding. Those who think it’s cruel or hurtful to the dog obviously have never done it, if they have didn’t do it correctly or the trainer didn’t do it correctly. There’s many ways around the barn so to speak but for reliable results I would bank on it.

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I forcefetched this dog at 6 months. He passed his HZP hunt test at 8 months. That includes a 330 yard rabbit retrieve and a 220 yard duck retrieve. Since then he truly loves retrieving everything from coyotes on down. He tends to be highly obedient on heel, come, sit, stay, down, kennel, etc. Good to have control on 82 pounds of drahthaar and force fetch is a great foundation for that.

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Yup force fetch is a sham.
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Good to see you Kurt.. how’s Harvey doin’?

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Pics don't tell the whole tale...These Birds didn't walk over for pics...

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ets, etc, etc...


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Etc, etc, etc....


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Originally Posted by Mbogo2106
Good to see you Kurt.. how’s Harvey doin’?


Hey Matt, Harv is doing good. Him and Bane are best buddies. Looking forward to fall. Drew a bighorn tag so losing some early bird season to that but hoping to get out a bunch this fall after that.

Aggie is looking great, love the field pics.

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That’s about as cute a pocket dog can get. And she’s a performer too it looks like.

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Over 65 years of bird hunting and i don't know how many dogs, I have never force fetch trained a dog, if you have to force a dog to work you have the wrong dog for the job, Rio7

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Thank you!!!!


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Originally Posted by RIO7


Over 65 years of bird hunting and i don't know how many dogs, I have never force fetch trained a dog, if you have to force a dog to work you have the wrong dog for the job, Rio7


My sentiments exactly.I don't train gun dogs...I trained other dogs to do lots of work related things. Fetching a variety of things to hand was a high priority in a lot of them.


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Originally Posted by battue
Pics don't tell the whole tale...These Birds didn't walk over for pics...

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


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ets, etc, etc...



That IS a cute little gun dog!


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Best retriever I have ever had was not force fetched. She is almost 16 now, and is as naturallly polished as ever. She’ll hup to deliver, and will inexplicably deliver a dry mourning dove almost every time, her mouth is so soft. Scout never has had an e-collar on in her life. Never needed it.

Her great niece, Jet, is my newest Springer; she’s just over a year old and has an absolutely stellar field trial pedigree. Rambunctious as all get out, but just a little bit dishonest.

My intent is to train her like Scout, but, let’s just say I am keeping my options open. smile

Here's Scout:

[Linked Image]

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And here is Scout with Jet, when Jet was 4 months old:

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Originally Posted by Mbogo2106
That’s about as cute a pocket dog can get. And she’s a performer too it looks like.


Merlot is a male and he’s one heck of a fun dog to hunt with. He is everything that he appears to be! I smile every time I think about him working cover.

Harry,

Thanks for the video of Higgy. I see he’s coming along well.

I appreciate all the great responses, I really do. I am leaning towards not going through with the force fetch. I will say that the variance in responses, between the Fire and other sources, is pretty broad. The most compelling argument for force fetching that I have been given is that it will make my Lab more business like in his work. Right now he is a complete goof ball when retrieving. He is a VERY enthusiastic retriever. I’m serious, he is a real clown. He is a blast to watch work, but I can see it being a distraction in the field. Still, I think I will can the force fetch idea.

Thanks again to everyone!

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The best dog i have ever seen in the field, no matter what we were hunting, Dove Quail Sharptail Ducks, Track Wounded Deer, loved to Coyote hunt. Great Damn Dog. Rio7

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And here's my best dog Rio7...though I could never quite get her to fetch a deer or elk.... laugh

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This last picture is Smoke, picking up a dove, the day before she died, Steve, had to carry her back to me. she was 16 yrs old, it was like losing one of my family. Rio7

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Damn! That stings....


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ingwe, I know you know how much it stings. Rio7

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Originally Posted by RIO7
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This last picture is Smoke, picking up a dove, the day before she died, Steve, had to carry her back to me. she was 16 yrs old, it was like losing one of my family. Rio7


















Clearly the dig of a lifetime. You were blessed!

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What battue & Ingwe said. Do you want your dog to go through some pain that's unnecessary for the type hunting you"re going to do with it?

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Never noticed force fetch training causing a lot of pain on my dogs. What type of force fetch training did you do that resulted in that? For me, it works great and I'll keep using it on every dog I own in the future. People should use whatever method they like and gets the results they want. Like a lot of things in life really.

Had some hallway trained brittanies in the distant past. They did fine too.

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https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-dogs/2010/03/must-you-force-fetch/


One thing I can guarantee is FF is not for every Dog...It would be a fools game to FF most hunting Cockers and Springers. They have a strong prey dive, however a hard hand from those they trust will turn them off. And they rarely would forget.

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Battue, I think you are exactly right on that. I don't think a lot of brittanies would do well with it either. Everyone should train up their dogs how they want of course.

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wilkeshunter, Don't know how old your dog is? but I enjoy a dog that excited and playful, when it come's to fetching, just because your serious, they don't have to be, make hunting fun and rewarding for the dog and they will become serious. mine beat me to the Jeep, when i pick up a gun and open the door in the morning. Rio7



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Cold wet and muddy, 5:00 A.M. let's go!

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Hate to step in it but what’s everybody’s opinion of e-collar training?

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Dog doesn't listen to the command, he gets lit up.
One must first train the dog, and he fully understands what he is to do. When he decides to not do as commanded, there is a price to be paid.
He listens, and does, no problem !

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Thanks splattermatic. Totally agree. Waiting to see if others will chime in before I really step in it.

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Originally Posted by RIO7
wilkeshunter, Don't know how old your dog is? but I enjoy a dog that excited and playful, when it come's to fetching, just because your serious, they don't have to be, make hunting fun and rewarding for the dog and they will become serious. mine beat me to the Jeep, when i pick up a gun and open the door in the morning. Rio7



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Cold wet and muddy, 5:00 A.M. let's go!

Rocky is 10 months old. We really love his spirit and enthusiasm when he is retrieving. That is a big reason why we bailed on the idea of going through the force fetch training. Fetching is a game that he loves and we are working to keep it that way. It will likely be a long time before he is a serious gun dog, which is ok with us.

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I’ve been using the collar judiciously

Great for eliminating unwanted behavior that could endanger your dog like “chasing”

Took her though snake avoidance training and the collar is quite necessary

Be careful using it during retriever training with dummies or birds. Make sure you’re “Johnny on the spot” with the correction and start conservatively

I’ve used it to correct breaking on the shot, popping while taking a line, and ignoring whistle and voice commands at range. I usually just “nick” her.

Less is more

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Started using a Tritronics collar after attending a John and Phyllis Dobbs class in 1978 I think. A very basic model featuring an extendable metal antenna and one setting - Fry. Closest "modern" model I can think of would be the Trash-breaker. I had that collar for almost 30 years until it was lost in the mail for servicing.

Upgraded to a 100LR after taking another Dobbs class where avoidance and aversion techniques were taught. Upgraded to a 2 dog 500LR a couple years later but seldom used the momentary setting and running two dogs with one transmitter was a hopeless cause. Sold that and switched to Upland Specials when they came out to get the receiver and beeper on one collar.

The Upland 2 was the apex of collars in my mind. No power plugs, adjustable continuous at the transmitter, momentary shock at high setting on whatever transmitter was set at, and good range. The Upland 3 brought out after Garmin took over is a bridge too far as it is more complicated and offers too many options. I use it on my finished dogs mostly for the tone and vibrate functions as well as one of my wife's dogs for its bark limiter feature. I added a Dogtra collar many years ago as their similar collar worked much like the Upland 2. It also has different beep patterns/sounds which helps when running multiple dogs at a time. Dogtra will be my new go to brand unless they muck up their collars like Garmin.

After 40 years I am a believer in ecollars. There is no better way of stopping bad habits from starting or controlling the dog from a distance. There is a learning curve involved and many blame the collar for poor results rather than the user. I've taken 4 classes from the Dobbs, several others from various collar manufacturers, and countless pointers from fellow training club members- professional and amateur. I am still learning new uses or being reminded of old. They are a valuable addition to one's training tools.

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Agree.

Splatter used “lit up”. I was wondering just how much “juice” it takes to light a Dog up????? “Lit up" around here implies getting it all.

And all Dogs are different for what they will tolerate. Had a yard electric fence. One would go right up to the warning sound. Another pretty much stayed in the center of the yard and never tested it after his initial education.

Had a Dog that was always excited to see me. Eventually, in his excitement, he started pissing every time I came home. It went on for a long time and I finally said enough and "lit" him up. Turns out he had Lymes and his kidneys were failing. it killed him way before his time. Lighting him up solved nothing.

One Dog now you can "tick" him and he corrects and goes on. Another, a "tick" brings him all the way in. That button has "light" that needs to be used wisely.

Dogs are smart...One Dog will fitch the transmitter...another knows it is a snake that his bit him more than once.

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Of course the electric collar can be used to train a great dog. Skilled trainers have been doing it for decades. There's usually more than one way to get a good result. Lots more good collars out there than good trainers.

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Light him up, is just a term to use the button.
With the varied settings on collars, your dog will tell you where it needs to be set to get their attention. Any more is not needed, as they get the picture....

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Bought an e-collar a decade or so ago. Never even put it on a dog. Gave it away.
Hundreds of pictures of my dogs fetching birds to me. I've never needed to force fetch a single one of them.

A few years back I was on the property of a prominent Northern California trainer. Watched him repeatedly light up a dog, cursing at it while the dog was yelping.
I had to leave the area as I wanted to beat that stupid SOB "trainer".

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Buddy told me more dogs been ruined with e-collars. So no thanks..


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

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Originally Posted by 79S
Buddy told me more dogs been ruined with e-collars. So no thanks..

Is your buddy saying he has ruined more dogs with an ecollar than not? Or, is he stating he knows a larger number of people who do not know the proper use of an ecollar than those that do? An ecollar is merely a tool which has no ability in and of itself to make or break a dog.

Instead, it is up to the user to acquire the knowledge to properly use the tool to its best advantage. An ecollar is not the best tool for someone to learn by trial and error, especially for the dog. Blaming the ecollar for the shortcomings of the user is not something I would expect from a knowledgable trainer.

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Originally Posted by splattermatic
Light him up, is just a term to use the button.
With the varied settings on collars, your dog will tell you where it needs to be set to get their attention. Any more is not needed, as they get the picture....

When I started with ecollars, "fry" was the term used as there was only one setting and it was "Fry". Later, "lit up" began to be substituted as it was deemed gentler and more in tune with the thought process behind the use of ecollars at that time. It seemed to occur about the same time lights were put on the receivers though one wouldn't see the light come on when in the field. Later still it was "correction", "stimulus", "tap", or any number of less objectionable terms as the use of ecollars became more refined and as the method or characteristic of the shock changed.

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Thanks for the replies guys. Its apparent that some guys get it and some guys assume. Even with the terms “light em’ up” and “fry” used, those with knowledge and experience know that you’re not sending the dog to the electric chair. Others think you’re being cruel and unusual and need your butt kicked for the horrible way you treat your best friend. It’s the same with “force fetch”. I know it sounds like you’re forcing the dog to do something it doesn’t want to do in the first place, but it just isn’t so. The use of a toe hitch, ear pinch or e-collar is just a way to apply stimulus. As I said before, I will always force fetch a dog from here on out. It’s made his obedience level all around better because of it.

I know each dog is different and some can take enormous pressure while others cower at a harsh glance. I knew very early on that I would be e-collar training my Draht so right from the get go I had him wear the collar every time we were out. It wasn’t even turned on at first and then when it was used in training, I saw what level he responded to and actually used it on myself. To this day, bringing the collar and remote out is just like bringing out the shotgun or loading the crate. The dog has associated all this with his best times and relishes it. He doesn’t try to get away from it but instead is eager to have it on. To each his own I guess.

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As far as FF….if the Dig doesn’t respond to your acceptable level of “stimulus”, where do you go next”?

And let’s be honest….stimulus is a sugar coat for pain. Sounds better to the uninformed. Both those for and against the blood sports.


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And the newer collars are using a different type (for lack of a better word) of shock that produces a different degree of shock. Something about the wavelength(?) which results in a less intense shock. I might be wrong but I understand it as the difference between the zap you get touching an electric fence powered by a 6v lantern battery and placing your tongue across the anodes of a 9v transistor battery.

At least I think this is a newer development, I've just been hearing of it lately. It could be what Dogtra has been doing for years as they have a much greater degree of adjustment than Tritronics. It might explain why the trainer I know best refers to some dogs as Dogtra dogs and others as TT dogs.

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You could be right about the stimulus on the Dogtra. That’s what I have and the range is from 1 to o think around 130 or so. My dog responds at around 27-30. Barely anything at all.
As for what’s next if the dog doesn’t respond to the stimulus, I’ve never had one not so I guess I’d have to think about it.

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I’m not completely against FF, but I’ve seen it get ugly.


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Originally Posted by woodmaster81
Originally Posted by 79S
Buddy told me more dogs been ruined with e-collars. So no thanks..

Is your buddy saying he has ruined more dogs with an ecollar than not? Or, is he stating he knows a larger number of people who do not know the proper use of an ecollar than those that do? An ecollar is merely a tool which has no ability in and of itself to make or break a dog.

Instead, it is up to the user to acquire the knowledge to properly use the tool to its best advantage. An ecollar is not the best tool for someone to learn by trial and error, especially for the dog. Blaming the ecollar for the shortcomings of the user is not something I would expect from a knowledgable trainer.

He’s seen people (not trainers)improperly use them. They start hitting the shock button for stupid chit and the dog has no idea what they did wrong. If we were to do it with our youngest lab it would be with a trainer. No way in hell I do it, not saying I’m a idiot who would shock the dog for no reason, but I’m not comfortable doing it.


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

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You don't need a license to be a dog trainer or horse trainer, all most trainers do it tell every one they are a trainer and get some cards printed, very few are qualified for the job, but they can talk a good game, funny how that works. Rio7

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But our youngster demonstrates everything Battue said. Loves to fetch, listens to you, when you throw the ball or bumper he’s looking for it in the air. In the house he will find a ball and flip it in your lap. He needs works, but has a lot of potential being a good duck dog.


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

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I started using the e collar about thirty years ago with my last three Labs. All of them had and have the same positive reaction to it that Mbogo2106 described re his dog. It's like the e collar means good times ahead. IMO the e collar training also overlapped into a positive overall effect on their behavior/obedience even when they weren't wearing it.

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Originally Posted by 79S
Originally Posted by woodmaster81
Originally Posted by 79S
Buddy told me more dogs been ruined with e-collars. So no thanks..

Is your buddy saying he has ruined more dogs with an ecollar than not? Or, is he stating he knows a larger number of people who do not know the proper use of an ecollar than those that do? An ecollar is merely a tool which has no ability in and of itself to make or break a dog.

Instead, it is up to the user to acquire the knowledge to properly use the tool to its best advantage. An ecollar is not the best tool for someone to learn by trial and error, especially for the dog. Blaming the ecollar for the shortcomings of the user is not something I would expect from a knowledgable trainer.

He’s seen people (not trainers)improperly use them. They start hitting the shock button for stupid chit and the dog has no idea what they did wrong. If we were to do it with our youngest lab it would be with a trainer. No way in hell I do it, not saying I’m a idiot who would shock the dog for no reason, but I’m not comfortable doing it.


He sounds like an idiot.Shock is only used for life threatening situations. I use lower shock setting to break dogs at young age chasing, deer, rattle snakes. and other critters they are not to supposed with leave it command. Continuos shocking will quickly kill a dog's desire to hunt with you and ruin it.


. Vibrate or beep works great for training reinforcement. and II use a food reward in conjunction with ecollar on vibrate early in dog's training. After a month of sessions rarely have to use. I still will always have an e collar on while hunting for back up

Putting on e collar means fun times. Ive been fortunate to never have had to force fetch any of my dogs. Some at a year or so will have a stubborn streak and not complete fetch, get distracted and back on the long lead they go til over it. it end pretty quickly. Training should be enjoyable for both

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I never use a setting if I haven't tested it on myself first. The original one power level collars were a wreck waiting to happen.


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Force fetching a dog is a building block for training a gun or test dog. It should not cause pain to a dog in the process. For me, it’s purpose is to add pressure to a dog and teach him how to handle and turn the pressure off. It is very important that a dog is able to handle pressure and knows how to handle it and not shut down. When I say pressure, I’m not referring to pain. I’m referring to a dog wanting to please and understanding how to communicate.

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Fetch means fetch.
This guy snuck in and attacked a goose decoy !
A load of #2 steel ended his appetite for goose breasts..
Trap watched the whole thing go down.
After getting to the coyote, he smelled it all over, but figured on a hold, and brought it back to me.
Here he's at the house, just as proud as could be, carrying around a 43 pound coyote.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Originally Posted by 79S
Buddy told me more dogs been ruined with e-collars. So no thanks..

how man y bird dogs has your buddy trained?

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Originally Posted by woodmaster81
And the newer collars are using a different type (for lack of a better word) of shock that produces a different degree of shock. Something about the wavelength(?) which results in a less intense shock. I might be wrong but I understand it as the difference between the zap you get touching an electric fence powered by a 6v lantern battery and placing your tongue across the anodes of a 9v transistor battery.

At least I think this is a newer development, I've just been hearing of it lately. It could be what Dogtra has been doing for years as they have a much greater degree of adjustment than Tritronics. It might explain why the trainer I know best refers to some dogs as Dogtra dogs and others as TT dogs.

get a collar with a vibrate mode. Most have that function

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Originally Posted by ribka
get a collar with a vibrate mode. Most have that function

I've been using that feature for 30 years maybe. I use it as a silent Whoa command. The use you are suggesting is just as easily handled with stimulus with no greater amount of pain.

I also use the tone feature, a short blip is for the dog to check back with me and a steady tone is the recall. These "silent" commands are very nice when birds are spooky, the dogs are at longer range, and/or when it is windy. I've had people think my dogs are mind readers as the dogs appear to know my intentions without me saying a word.

Ecollars are a tremendous boon to dog training but, like any other tool - even a leash- it can be abused by those who have no clue on how to properly use one or if intentionally misused. I've trained dogs with a number of modern training tools and have done it without. I'll take the modern tools any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
What are the thoughts on here?

As usual, my thoughts aren't gonna meld well with the gun dog crowd. I've never even needed to think about force fetching as a way to get a dog to retrieve. Not fan of compulsive training. Its not necessary.

Maybe true for an average Joe bird hunter who is willing to put up with mediocre performance. Run field trials, Master Hunter level hunt tests, NAVHDA Utility level tests and see how far you'll get without force fetch training.

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Originally Posted by Ghostman
Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
What are the thoughts on here?

As usual, my thoughts aren't gonna meld well with the gun dog crowd. I've never even needed to think about force fetching as a way to get a dog to retrieve. Not fan of compulsive training. Its not necessary.

Maybe true for an average Joe bird hunter who is willing to put up with mediocre performance. Run field trials, Master Hunter level hunt tests, NAVHDA Utility level tests and see how far you'll get without force fetch training.

Interesting statement...when in fact hunting wild Birds is most likely more demanding of a Dog, than the mostly artificial game of trials. Where nit picking the fine points often determines the winner. Combined with, "Joe has been at the game a long time, this may be this last chance for a Championship." wink A great Ruffed Grouse or wild Pheasant Dog being the prime example.. I've seen a couple "best" Ruffed Grouse Dogs that never retrieved a Bird, however they were a "best" and few trial Dogs would even come close to them in the field at their game. One average Joe, had Lacy a Setter...Slow and cruised thru the covers at an easy gait. She pointed feet away and 50 yards or so away. Broke point and sneaked or circled them to finish her end of the game. At least 300 Ruffed Grouse spent their last moments in front of her nose.I doubt a trial Dog every existed that was her equal on Grouse.

Dave Duffy has a better than recognized reputation in hunting Dog circles and gives some food for thought. The conclusion last sentence is interesting...

https://www.gundogmag.com/editorial/training_gd_trial_1109/175848

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My experience with field trail dogs, in the field hunting upland game birds, is they are always waiting on their handler to tell them what to do.

Dog trainers, there's a lot of them that don't really like dogs, but they love winning, as a result they will do what ever it takes to win.

The very thing that makes a dog breed popular is the very thing that ruins the breed, it's called the dog show, or competition,

Never mistake a winning dog for a good dog, many times the wrong dog wins, any event that's judged, can be poorly done. Rio7

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Ghostman, You have competition with dogs, mixed up with hunting dogs, that's were you go wrong. Rio7

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I agree fetch means fetch....However, force training isn't the only way to get there...When it is breed into them.


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A Coyote would most likely end up in a refusal....but I can live with that with a Bird Dog.

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Originally Posted by RIO7
Ghostman, You have competition with dogs, mixed up with hunting dogs, that's were you go wrong. Rio7

It sure appears you don't know the difference.....

Field trials are competition for dogs.

AKC hunt tests, NAVHDA and the German hunt tests dogs are judged against a "Standard" not against other dogs in competition.

The absolute best hunting dogs I've seen, judged or owned were all tested and achieved Master, Utility and VGP titles. All were force broke to retrieve, backed, and were steady to wing and shot.

Like I stated earlier if someone is willing to accept mediocracy in a dogs performance so be it. I won't and never have with any of the GSP's and DK's I've owned.

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Tell me how steady to wing and shot is an advantage on wild Birds....in that on crippled runners, while the Bird is getting away the Dog is watching it get a head start.

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Tell me where a non-broke jumping at the flush/chasing idiot that's likely to get shot is an advantage? If a dog has to go by sight alone and can't use it's nose then there is a problem.

Based on the comments I can tell who trains and hunts BIRD DOGS and who the weekend warriors with pets are. Nuff said...

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Well, it is the hunters responsibility not to be shooting when the Dog and Bird are too close...And why would a Dog that started early have to go by sight alone?


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Originally Posted by battue
Well, it is the hunters responsibility not to be shooting when the Dog and Bird are too close...And why would a Dog that started early have to go by sight alone?

For conversation, the Bird came down in here and took off running. What where they going to chase by sight. Weekend warriors looking for expert advice...

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

How far would they see in the cornfield???

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Weekend warrior question...was he only looking for where the Bird went???? Thanks in advance.....

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

He brought him out of that mess in the background...I'll tell ya, that Dog had fighter pilot vision....And he wasn't a weekend warrior. smile Admittedly he lacked style points....but few cripples escaped.


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Another reason I see little advantage of having them sit inside this until released is of any benefit, Most likely they are going to have to use their nose...and a good Dog his ears also...and time would be slipping away.

Amazing the amount of pics one can take in a weekend.... laugh

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Ghostman, has drank the Kool-Aid, of the field trial crowd, which is? make the dog fit what he wants it to be not what the dog is, make it fit the mold so i can be big deal among the in crowd.

It's a Judged event, how many time have you heard that Judge Sucks?? or it's politics? the ground is no good? the birds suck? it's to windy? it's to Hot? that dog does not fit the Standard?? That guy's the judges best friend?

Ghostman, I think your a EXPERT, you know what that is? it's someone that's Quit Learning.

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Ghostman,

I hunt birds, 4-5 day's a week from Sept 1st till Feb 28th every year, i'm damn sure no weekend Hunter, I keep 35 to 40 dogs going all season, we take hunters from all over the world, that have hunted all over the world, that know good dogs when they see them.
We are not hunting pen raised birds, all wild birds, 70% of the Quail knocked down hit the ground running, a dog without a good nose is worthless to us, our environment, is not farm fields, ( wish it was) every thing here will Stab you, Sting you, Bite you, our dogs have to know, there's a Rattler there, or there's pig's here, every day is a Field Trail. Rio7

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battue, I love your dogs, would love to hunt with you some day. Rio7

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Last years pups. Rio7

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Well thank you and you never know. However, my Dogs will mostly do OK. One was great and the others bordered on good. What we try to do is hunt we’re there are a lot of Birds. Which does make a difference come picture taking time.😂

The great one would find you a Bird when they were few, but he learned on many.

The trials and tests are responsible for some great bloodlines for hunting Dogs….but they are a different game, and their standards don’t always correlate to the hunting fields.


Bud has a very good Setter with a deadly nose. I’ve seen him walk into the high grass and go immediately on cautious alert. His tail doesn’t starch high. The field trial crew would flunk him out. He is a damn fine Bird Dog and has a better nose and more brains than most who will get a ribbon

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That is the way they are supposed to look!!!!

You have that Texas Quail place. I’ve been tempted. 😁

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battue, Nothing more fun than a good dog!! mine look that way on their own I don't try to teach them to, I don't really care, if they pose, if they can find birds., birds make bird dogs. very dry here now, sand burr's are terrible, my 2 Setters are clipped to look almost like English Pointers, we need rain bad, but we have Quail. pairs are nesting now. Rio7

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I'm hoping SD also gets some extra rain soon...Like your place they and the Birds need it.


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..and it takes a cool hand to shoot well on a covey of Wild Quail. Here…here…no here…and they are gone!!!! An explosion of the Wild ones is an event!!!!

I was embarrassed more than once..and I was younger and quicker.


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"Ghostman, has drank the Kool-Aid, of the field trial crowd, which is? make the dog fit what he wants it to be not what the dog is, make it fit the mold so i can be big deal among the in crowd."

Rio, Ignorance is bliss.....it's obvious you don't get it and probably never will regardless of how many dogs you've owned.

AGAIN, HUNT TESTS, NAVHDA and the German hunt tests are NOT FIELD TRIALS and there is no competition. Dogs are judged against a written STANDARD, The dog either does it or not. It either passes or fails. There is very little if any politics involved. What is so hard to understand?

IF your dogs are all that and a bag of chips why not PROVE IT?. Anyone can run their mouth and say their dog is good.
It's another for a dog to achieve a hunting title at the highest level that's a pleasure to hunt over instead of a point stealing, breaking/chasing idiot that's out of control for most of the hunt. Testing/Titling shows strengths and weaknesses across several areas/traits, which can & will improve breedings. It has nothing to do with "being a big deal in the crowd".

Owning Setter and Pointers it's kind of ironic that you're so against force fetch retrieving. From my experience Pointers especially are a breed that need it most.

The Germans have a saying when it comes to dogs....Those with one dog usually have a good dog. Those with many usually have nothing.

It's obvious our opinions differ greatly when it comes to training dogs. You feed what you like and I'll do the same.

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Prove his Dogs???? The proof is people pay more than a little to hunt Wild Birds over his Dogs. They either prove themselves to a high “Standard” over many Wild coveys over the course of a long season…or they give their dollars to someone who does.

His Dogs are not “point stealing, break chasing, out of control idiots.”

His “Standards” are obviously something that don’t tell you about in class. As he mentioned, in addition to training, Birds make a Dog….and his most likely see more of the real thing in a day, than a year of your tests.

Nothing wrong with NAVHDA, however it doesn’t come close to perhaps 20 coveys morning and 20 more in the evening. Along with picking up the singles. Your tests don’t even begin to compare to that level of quality work.


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I'd be willing to bet most "paying customers" wouldn't know what a good bird dog was if it bit them in the ass. Exposure to game is great but doesn't always equate to training or how a dog acts/handles or what traits a dog has or doesn't have.

Ranch/preserve dogs are among the most out of control dogs I've ever had the displeasure of hunting over.

40 coveys a day? That I'd have to see 1st hand lol

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15 to 20 AM and PM was the norm at the place I hunted in Georgia. All Wild, 15000 acres with an estimated 5-7 Birds per acre. It’s a big world out there.

Give Texas Quail enough rain and they will blossom out of the ground.

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battue,



Like every place else some years we have more birds than others, but our average hunt we will put up
10 covey's,


every 2 hours, many people can't walk much more than that, we do not chase singles, we go find another covey, depends on the hunters we will hunt as hard as they want to hunt as long as they want to hunt, a lot of our hunts are social events, and depends on how hard the people over train at night after supper, some just don't make it in the morning, some are sure enough hunters, and are waiting gun in hand when we show up with the dogs early in the morning, getting back to dogs, you would be amazed at the number of people that want to buy 1 or more of our dogs, the only thing our dogs win is, good care -- good dog -- good petting. Rio7

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I hunted Pineland Plantation...averages 7 coveys per hour...It sure was fun while it lasted. laugh And one couldn't ask for a nicer group of people. They even let my past Springer "Abby" have the job of putting the coveys up...

https://talltimbers.org/fall-field-day-at-pineland-plantation-draws-large-crowd/

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Ghostman, I am not responsible for your lack of experience, i don't think you would know a good hunting dog, if it bit you in the ass, and i am sure you have never been on a real Quail hunt, with dogs out riders,and good shooters, one things for sure your a expert, and know more than people that hunt every day. "them that can do, them that can't talk about it" your a good talker. Rio7.

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Enjoyed reading this discussion, thanks. And I WAS going to say that even with a few differing opinions, I really like that the tape measures haven't come out all that much... but I see a few Stanleys warming up now...

I've looked into force fetching in a couple very specific situations... 1.) A ball spitter; fetch crazy dog. Great material to work with, but I need pup to look at ME and listen ME, not just lose his mind about the next one coming up. 2.) A player. Stopping short, tossing birds into the air, rolling on them, plucking, etc. FF has the same effect, makes them look to me to finish the job. 3.) Timid or overly submissive dog fetching around other (fetch crazy?) dogs, FF makes them more determined to get all the way to me before allowing me or any other dog to take their fetch from them.
Other than those, and similar situations, I think it's kinda like Public Schools... teaching to the tests. Sure, they can pass the test, but how employable are they!?!? My Dad used to say that schoolwork would "teach you to think..." I don't know if he'd say that anymore. Sadly. Best dogs think on their feet, AND listen when directed.
I have nothing against the clubs and associations, in fact I wish I had the time to participate in one or a few of them. I'd love investing time in trials and dog testing associations. But I have random minutes of spare time at this point, say nothing about random weekends or weeks to wonder what to do with. Maybe someday.

My two cents, E-collars are awesome. (Nothing cruel about them. I've tested them on myself, and hit myself harder in the tweaked back with a "tens unit" than they did.) It's simply a hearing aid for a dog. Getting their attention is the only requirement, and they work great.


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Originally Posted by RIO7
battue,



Like every place else some years we have more birds than others, but our average hunt we will put up
10 covey's,


every 2 hours,
many people can't walk much more than that, we do not chase singles, we go find another covey, depends on the hunters we will hunt as hard as they want to hunt as long as they want to hunt, a lot of our hunts are social events, and depends on how hard the people over train at night after supper, some just don't make it in the morning, some are sure enough hunters, and are waiting gun in hand when we show up with the dogs early in the morning, getting back to dogs, you would be amazed at the number of people that want to buy 1 or more of our dogs, the only thing our dogs win is, good care -- good dog -- good petting. Rio7

It most certainly is a big world...


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Rainshadow....Agree. We can disagree on our training methods. However, no need to question another's experience when they don't know the other....

Use a shock collar, and now there are ones with GPS location...I would rather not hunt if the Dog wasn't wearing one.

Addition..To be clear, Ghostman started it with his "Weekend Warrior and hunting with your pet" remark..

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I visited Finn at school yesterday.
He's looking great, and weighing in at 80 pounds at close to 8 months old.
He's on the table, working on "Hold"....
The trainer, and Finn.
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As I understand it, the original question was "how important is force fetch training to making a good bird dog," or something to that effect (staying on topic is not a strength of some forum participants). I can only offer my own amateur experience, which is that I have refused to force fetch a pup despite assurances that I would regret it...for the last 21 years. I'll admit that it's a small sample set, but the lab and two wirehairs in question have not, in fact, refused to retrieve in hunting situations as I was promised/warned/threatened. In point of fact they have retrieved birds including geese, turkeys, and a swan to hand at heel. I haven't hunted cranes yet, but my humble response to your question is that if your dog will retrieve without being subjected to physical or psychological pain, why introduce it? Others may have different experiences, which I will proactively grant validity. Just my two cents' worth (I won't maim a quail either. We're hunters, not sadists).


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Do you like cheese with your whine?🤣


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Have never shot a Quail with out maiming it. Rio7

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Originally Posted by RIO7
Have never shot a Quail with out maiming it. Rio7

He "Grants Validity" to those that do....while considering them to be sadists. ....Addition: if using live Birds...Interesting bit of logic...

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I consider crippling a captive bird from a pen unnecessary to train bird dogs.

"We can disagree on our training methods. However, no need to question another's experience when they don't know the other...."


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Originally Posted by MonkeyWrench
I consider crippling a captive bird from a pen unnecessary to train bird dogs.

"We can disagree on our training methods. However, no need to question another's experience when they don't know the other...."

Great quote...made without calling someone who does it different a sadist... wink.

In addition you mentioned you were "threatened" by others that your Dog would not be a reliable retriever. While I believe is is not necessary to FF, I was thinking what threats were made against you? Seems kind of serious from here.Warnings and promises are one thing...Threats up the situation???? A little exaggeration perhaps????


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I was threatened that if I didn't force train my dogs, a really unhappy old man with questionable reading comprehension faculties whom I have never met would stalk me on a hunting blog directing internally contradictory and/or tautological invectives my way. Well, son of a bitch!

I said that I view the unnecessary dispensation of pain on helpless animals as sadistic. If it gets your blood flowing, more power to you.

What kind of cheese? I imagine you as a velveeta guy, perhaps alongside some potted meat product in a basement room with one light bulb dangling from a cord? Are you going with the bargain saltines or did you splurge on some Ritz crackers?


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More made up BS.... laugh


Remember this, or did you conveniently forget????...I was out, until you tried to get another weak dig in..Hiiillaaarious...you old stalker laugh

Originally Posted by MonkeyWrench
(staying on topic is not a strength of some forum participants)..

Addition: Without my help you continually prove you are are not all that up on Bird Dogs...No sense of me showing what you do so well...Bye!!!

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Back to our regular programming...I did come across a you tube video where a trainer was using the "hold" method on a comeback pad. It was working well and I didn't see where any unnecessary pain was involved.

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Battue,

I'm interpreting that as Zestas. Enjoy.


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MonkeyWrench,

Go troll something you think you know something about, you damn sure don't know anything about bird hunting or bird dogs, GFY Rio7

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Originally Posted by MonkeyWrench
As I understand it, the original question was "how important is force fetch training to making a good bird dog," or something to that effect (staying on topic is not a strength of some forum participants). I can only offer my own amateur experience, which is that I have refused to force fetch a pup despite assurances that I would regret it...for the last 21 years. I'll admit that it's a small sample set, but the lab and two wirehairs in question have not, in fact, refused to retrieve in hunting situations as I was promised/warned/threatened. In point of fact they have retrieved birds including geese, turkeys, and a swan to hand at heel. I haven't hunted cranes yet, but my humble response to your question is that if your dog will retrieve without being subjected to physical or psychological pain, why introduce it? Others may have different experiences, which I will proactively grant validity. Just my two cents' worth (I won't maim a quail either. We're hunters, not sadists).

Why force fetch? My perspective is as a retriever trainer and hunter.

There are several reasons why one might force fetch.

1) If your retriever is going to run hunt tests or field trials, he will have to deliver to hand
a cold bird with the scent of other dogs, or sometimes a cold, wet,"skanky" duck.
Very different than hunting where every bird is a warm, freshly shot flier.
Force-fetch gives you a training tool to deal with delivery to hand a cold, wet,"skanky" duck.

2) If your retriever is going to run hunt tests or field trials, he will have to deliver to hand
after swimming for a retrieve. Most untrained dogs would naturally drop the bird
to shake when exiting a pond returning at the shoreline. Force fetch provides a
training tool to prevent this drop and shake behavior.

3) It provides a training tool for dealing with mouth problems.
For example, as a handler what do you do if your dog starts chomping birds?

4) It teaches the retriever that he must quickly react (fetch) on command in response to pressure (ear or toe pinch).
No longer is he retrieving only because that is what he wants. It provides a training framework
where there is a negative consequence (pressure) if there is not compulsive obedience.
This framework is important in some dogs for quick and non-loopy whistle sits for example.
This framework is important in some dogs for a consequence to a cast-refusal for example.

For hunt tests/field trials though force-fetch is a necessary tool for the four reasons cited above.
However, to properly train force fetch requires patience, persistence, and good timing.

A bit of history:

Just as the blind retrieve concept was borrowed from herding dog trainers (Dave Elliot), retriever trainers borrowed force-breaking from pointing dog trainers. Back in the 1880s, pointing dog trainer David Sanborn developed force-breaking to teach elementary retrieving to bird dogs that have little or no natural retrieving instinct.

In the 1880s, when Mr. Sanborn "force breaking pointers", most pointing dog trainers were also horse trainers. Therefore, horse-training terms have always permeated the language of pointing dog trainers. For example, “Whoa!” Then, too, a horse trainer doesn’t train a horse; he “breaks” it. Thus, when a pointing dog trainer trains his dog in obedience, he “yard-breaks” him. When he steadies his dog to wing and shot, he “breaks” him and a steady pointing dog is a “broke dog.” Since among horse trainers, “breaking” is a synonym for “training,” the term force-breaking was quite natural for David Sanborn and his fellow pointing dog pros.

For many decades, retriever trainers did not force-fetch. For example, as late as 1949, James Lamb Free, in his classic, Training Your Retriever, all but foamed at the mouth at the very thought of force-breaking a retriever. (He did, however, recommend teaching retrievers to hold on command, apparently unaware that this is the first step in force-breaking.) However, gradually force-breaking became popular among many retriever trainers. The 1968 classic Charles Morgan on Retrievers recommends force-breaking every retriever. The procedure also was name a variety of terms including "trained retrieve", "force fetch", etc. There is a wide variety of methods of force-fetching including the classic "Non-Hell Week" approach by James Spencer, the conventional toe-hitch used primarily by pointer trainers, the training table approach, the "SmartFetch" approach by Evan Graham, and the non-ear pinch e-collar approach by Bill Hillman.

Force-fetch is rare among pro retriever trainers in the UK, primarily because in their trials every retrieve is
a live shot bird unlike US trials where cold, wet, skanky ducks can occur.

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So, what you are saying is hunters whose Dogs are working on recently killed non-skanky Birds, primarily FF their Dogs, because that is what the trailers must do working on skank. They have been more or less brain washed into copying trialing standards that don't necessarily apply to them.

And in fact it is mostly a non issue with recently killed warm Birds……as evidenced by the Brits. Which then logically means if your hunting Dog already enthusiastically retrieves, there is little reason to FF. The point some of us have been making.

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Alaska Skeeter,

Interesting, Don't think I understand every thing you are saying?? I shoot a few Quail and put them in a zip lock bag, 1 per bag in the freezer, when working with pups I will throw 2 or 3 out in the high grass, then drop a pup and send it to go find them, 2 things happen they will find a cold dead bird, and bring it to hand, and they won't bite down on a frozen bird, I keep sending them till a the birds are found and returned. that's as close to a Skank bird my dogs ever see. no F.F. here. I may be doing it all wrong but it works for me and my dogs. Rio7

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Originally Posted by Alaska_Skeeter
David Sanborn developed force-breaking to teach elementary retrieving to bird dogs that have little or no natural retrieving instinct.

Makes more sense to take a different path if you have a dog with little or no natural retrieving instinct. If you own the dog simply to have a retrieving robot and don't value him as a companion or a pet, then simply find a new home for him. Force breaking is painful for both the dog and the trainer if he has any heart at all...


Quote
Most untrained dogs would naturally drop the bird
to shake when exiting a pond returning at the shoreline.

There are other means to train delivery to hand when the dog exits water. It's the job of the trainer to know them.


Quote
It teaches the retriever that he must quickly react (fetch) on command in response to pressure (ear or toe pinch).
No longer is he retrieving only because that is what he wants.

Again, part of retriever training is transitioning the dog from retrieving for himself, to retrieving for the trainer. It's called PRAISE. Developing the dog's natural desire to PLEASE the trainer is the job of the trainer.

I think most owners have their dogs as pets that get to hunt with them a few times a year. The dog is a family member, a companion, and a hunting buddy. They want a serviceable hunting dog when they hunt. All of these things can be accomplished without force fetch training.

The difference in a dog that only obeys and retrieves out of fear to avoid pain and punishment, and a dog that does his job to PLEASE his trainer and receive PRAISE and REWARD is noticeable in demeanor, and personality. A skilled trainer withholding PRAISE can hurt a dog's feelings just as much as physical punishment.

Still, I see a place for force breaking for some who aren't capable.


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rcaumglia,

" Still i see a place for force breaking for some who aren't capable"

WHY?? Would you waste your time and effort on a dog that's not Capable, then try to force a round peg into a square hole, just to satisfy your ego, you already know you have the wrong dog, give it to someone for a pet. Rio7

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Originally Posted by RIO7
rcaumglia,

" Still i see a place for force breaking for some who aren't capable"

WHY?? Would you waste your time and effort on a dog that's not Capable, then try to force a round peg into a square hole, just to satisfy your ego, you already know you have the wrong dog, give it to someone for a pet. Rio7


I'm not talking about dogs that aren't capable. I'm talking about owners and trainers who aren't capable or smart enough to do it differently


Originally Posted by Bristoe
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Battue and Rio,

I can't help myself. You agree with me that FF isn't required, but tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and invite me to perform unnatural acts upon myself. What gives? Woodmaster, please chime in on this!


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Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,731
One last look before going to bed….and this. Hilarious!!!🤣

I can help myself…Don, you will have to find another windmill….


laissez les bons temps rouler
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