Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Force Fetch question

Hey gang,

I have a male Labrador that has his obedience to the point that he is ready to be force fetch trained. Unfortunately, my family strongly objects to our dog living away from us for the month or more that is required to get him force fetch trained. My question is, how important is the force fetching process to making a good gun dog. Neither my Golden Retriever nor my Boykin were force fetch trained. Both were good gun dogs, IMHO, particularly the Boykin. A trainer buddy of mine is pretty insistent that I get him force fetch trained. What are the thoughts on here?

Tim,
If your Lab is a natural enthusiastic retriever that shows no signs of hesitation on his retrieves then no need. If you demand absolute obedience in every instance, perhaps yes. Your Bud is a trainer, and like surgeons want to cut, trainers want to train. There will be pain involved in the process. Refusal will eliminate a Dog from a trial, which is why many are forced trained.

The answer will lie with your own expectations. If your Dog loves to retrieve, and can be counted on to make consistently successful attempts to do so, then I personally would not have him force fetched. And field work is different than trials, in that trials are more controlled...There are times in the field, when it would be wise to not have him go.

If this is you main concern...It isn't necessary. Good and perfection are two different expectations. And perfection is a hard mistress.



I hunt with a Bud that used to train...He thinks my Cockers not being trained to hupp...sitting.... to the flush is a major flaw. He thinks the Dog is not "finished". Trainers want to train. Mostly for their own personal satisfaction.

Now you've gone and done it. You've injected common sense in a topic that is sure to be controversial. Time to duck and cover!

Ton of material online and in books regarding the subject. Do it at home yourself. I started with a very strong drahthaar and it went great. Second one went easier and faster. Or don't do it. Up to you. Your dog.

Great basic advice. f you're not going to run trials I would not bother and work on it yourself. Ive never had to force fetch any of my dogs but I am careful on choosing breeders.

I enjoy hunting with my dogs and they enjoy working with me

I use to not do it 30 years ago. I have done it with the last three... I think it makes a more bid-able retriever...

I write to concur in the well thought out reasoning of the majority here and write specially to note the following:

1. there's no shortage of people who will tell you how to train/hunt/own your own dog
2. the only one that really matters is you so raise/train/hunt your dog as you think best
3. anyone who thinks a dog should be trained to sit at the shot would lose a lot more pheasants than I do as a result of such an inane concept.

I haven't F/F any of mine and have found that the majority of people who think it must be done don't own dogs or hunt with them often and instead do a lot of their hunting while on the stool paging through FIeld and Stream.

The surgeons I worked with had a saying — “better is the enemy of good.” While I’m no dog expert, this saying is appropriate for many other endeavors than surgery. The point is, always trying to improve something, can actually make it worse.

That’s worth at least 4 cents today. 😉

My 7 month old started school last Monday.
I miss him, but I'm unable to train him properly.
I want a properly trained waterfowl dog, so here we go.
I will run hunt tests with him.
He's a nephew of my last boy, Trap.

Fetch means fetch.....

I generally implement the forced retrieve in my dogs but not every time and for various reasons. I currently run pointing dogs, mainly setters and Continental breeds but started with Labs and have had two spaniels over the years.

The first reason, and the one everybody thinks of, is to enforce retrieving desire. This is important for those taking part in tests and trials as well as those who want/need/demand the dog to retrieve in all conditions. This would probably be important to those who hunt waterfowl over big water or moving waters particularly late in the year. This greater obedience is not only to have the dog retrieve when it may not feel like it but it will better allow one to call off the dog if conditions warrant. It could also be helpful for hunting geese were a fair number of birds may be retrieved in a day. I've seen this with snow geese where limits can be 20 or more birds per Hunter but a group hunting Canadas can run into a lot of birds where bag limits can be 5 birds per person.

Secondly, force fetch can help prevent hard mouth in a dog that is beginning to think of taking up that habit. I doubt it will break a habitual hard mouthed but it seems to lessen the odds of it happening if force fetch is started early. I do fore break all my VDD dogs as one of the requirements is to retrieve fur. As the desire to kill fur is fairly strong in these lines, that can carry over into retrieving fur. This may not be a major fault to some but I prefer having whatever is retrieved to have fewer holes in it. Especially fur that has some value as a pelt as I hate throwing money away.

The final reason, and one I feel most important, is force breaking helps enhance obedience. No matter how well the dog responded beforehand, they have responded better/faster/crisper afterward. This again helps in testing or trialling but I really appreciate the immediance of response when I need to divert the dog from a problem. This is particularly important with pointing breeds as they often work at a greater distance from the handler than flushing dogs.

If you decide on force training, I would do the force breaking myself. For the first timer I would look at hiring a local trainer to train you how to do it along with your dog. You will probably learn what not to do too, and not just in regards to force fetch? I personally feel going through the process together builds a better bond between dog and handler through more contact under harsher conditions than the norm. Your buddy might be willing to help you. I had a trainer help me with the first two dogs (Labs) and then again when I switched to pointing dogs. The one thing you must realize is that once started you will need to see it through to the end. Giving up may not teach the dog it is the boss but it will realize it does not necessarily have to obey and one will go backwards in obedience.

Force breaking is not difficult but one has to remember that the dog will Yelp, wail, bark, growl, or otherwise throw tantrums the degree of which depends on the method of force breaking used. Like breaking horses, where much of dog training terminology originated, there are two methods.

The one most commonly known is force breaking or fetching. It revolves around discomfort more than true pain. The dog will make all kinds of vocalizations but they are more out of unwillingness to accept the training than true pain. This is particularly true if using the ear pinch rather than toe pinch. It is not uncommon for the dog to go into hysterics if it sees the hand approach its head. It is also a reason I don't use this technique often.

The other method is gentle breaking. Like horses, it is slower and longer and best if started at a young age. I believe I first came across this method in North American Versatile Hunting Dog's "Green Book" training manual but I think it was dropped from the book a few decades back. Start with short easy retrieves done 1-3 times often through the day. Lengthen the retrieves slightly after the earlier ones are mastered. Switch out the retrieving item from bumpers as the dog gains confidence. I've used socks, blocks of wood, stuffed fire hose, hair brushes, empty soda cans, car keys, and whatever else I could find. It generally takes me 8 months to get a dog trained this way versus 6-8 weeks using toe pinch.

Which method to use depends on your dog's temperament, the goal(s) of the training, the time you wish to devote to the process, and your willingness to stick with it. If you are wishy-washy towards the process then it is probably not in your and your dog's best interest to start.

I was just watching a video of hold conditioning. It seeks the same result without the pain of the ear or toe pinch. I may look into that method or forget it all together. I appreciate everyone chiming in on this.

Hold conditioning is a form of gentle force fetch. It is still enforcing the dog to obedience, in this case to retrieve. Most dogs this will work well for, some dogs not so much. It can be a longer process compared to more typical force fetch which is a major reason it is not used much by trainers and many handlers.

I need to make a correction after I got taken to task for using the terms "force fetch" and "force breaking. The proper or current terminology is "trained retrieve" which is probably better as it encompasses all forms of enforcing the retrieve. I'm a bit old school so that change will probably not fully occur for me.

As usual, my thoughts aren't gonna meld well with the gun dog crowd. I've never even needed to think about force fetching as a way to get a dog to retrieve. Not fan of compulsive training.Its not necessary.

Trainers love to train trial dogs. It is what they do.

If pain is required, I am not interested.

I like hunting with dogs. The dogs like it too.

Enjoy your time afield.

I don't force fetch my retrievers. It's unnecessary and part of an antiquated paradigm.

Look up Buck Shope he has a place down your way.

http://swiftriverretrievers.com/

If the retrieval instinct is strong in the Dogs DNA….they will tell you at an early age if a field Dog needs force fetched. Some breeds start out ahead of others. If so, then your purpose is to make it fun. A fairly easy task for a Dog that lives in the house from day one.

Fetch most certainly means fetch, however if it’s in there one doesn’t need a lip pressed against a tooth, or the collar on continuous….the only way to stop the pain is to fetch. Another trick some use, to have the object brought to hand.

Some trainers will not always let you know how they arrive at the end. 😉

Exactamundo. And Ive had dogs that didn't demonstrate a fetching ability for some time. My last GSD showed no interest in it for 6 months, then-primarily by making it fun-he became a fetching machine. I usually will know they'll fetch when I do the evaluation as puppies at 6 and 8 weeks.

Battue and Ingwe have it right.

The force fetch process is something I’d never want to put my best friend through, and those who do it are sick fuqks better suited to be torturers in Jap prison camps.

Another thing I've found helpful is, under controlled conditions, involving a second dog in the process. Once Fido sees another dog pick up the dummy, he'll never drop it again. I do teach the "Hold" command, but do it slowly over weeks and have always gotten good delivery to hand. I couldn't care less about precision lining, so force is not really needed in my world.