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Originally Posted by Ghostman
Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
What are the thoughts on here?

As usual, my thoughts aren't gonna meld well with the gun dog crowd. I've never even needed to think about force fetching as a way to get a dog to retrieve. Not fan of compulsive training. Its not necessary.

Maybe true for an average Joe bird hunter who is willing to put up with mediocre performance. Run field trials, Master Hunter level hunt tests, NAVHDA Utility level tests and see how far you'll get without force fetch training.

Interesting statement...when in fact hunting wild Birds is most likely more demanding of a Dog, than the mostly artificial game of trials. Where nit picking the fine points often determines the winner. Combined with, "Joe has been at the game a long time, this may be this last chance for a Championship." wink A great Ruffed Grouse or wild Pheasant Dog being the prime example.. I've seen a couple "best" Ruffed Grouse Dogs that never retrieved a Bird, however they were a "best" and few trial Dogs would even come close to them in the field at their game. One average Joe, had Lacy a Setter...Slow and cruised thru the covers at an easy gait. She pointed feet away and 50 yards or so away. Broke point and sneaked or circled them to finish her end of the game. At least 300 Ruffed Grouse spent their last moments in front of her nose.I doubt a trial Dog every existed that was her equal on Grouse.

Dave Duffy has a better than recognized reputation in hunting Dog circles and gives some food for thought. The conclusion last sentence is interesting...

https://www.gundogmag.com/editorial/training_gd_trial_1109/175848

Last edited by battue; 05/22/22.

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My experience with field trail dogs, in the field hunting upland game birds, is they are always waiting on their handler to tell them what to do.

Dog trainers, there's a lot of them that don't really like dogs, but they love winning, as a result they will do what ever it takes to win.

The very thing that makes a dog breed popular is the very thing that ruins the breed, it's called the dog show, or competition,

Never mistake a winning dog for a good dog, many times the wrong dog wins, any event that's judged, can be poorly done. Rio7

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Ghostman, You have competition with dogs, mixed up with hunting dogs, that's were you go wrong. Rio7

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I agree fetch means fetch....However, force training isn't the only way to get there...When it is breed into them.


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

A Coyote would most likely end up in a refusal....but I can live with that with a Bird Dog.

Last edited by battue; 05/22/22.

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Originally Posted by RIO7
Ghostman, You have competition with dogs, mixed up with hunting dogs, that's were you go wrong. Rio7

It sure appears you don't know the difference.....

Field trials are competition for dogs.

AKC hunt tests, NAVHDA and the German hunt tests dogs are judged against a "Standard" not against other dogs in competition.

The absolute best hunting dogs I've seen, judged or owned were all tested and achieved Master, Utility and VGP titles. All were force broke to retrieve, backed, and were steady to wing and shot.

Like I stated earlier if someone is willing to accept mediocracy in a dogs performance so be it. I won't and never have with any of the GSP's and DK's I've owned.

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Tell me how steady to wing and shot is an advantage on wild Birds....in that on crippled runners, while the Bird is getting away the Dog is watching it get a head start.

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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Tell me where a non-broke jumping at the flush/chasing idiot that's likely to get shot is an advantage? If a dog has to go by sight alone and can't use it's nose then there is a problem.

Based on the comments I can tell who trains and hunts BIRD DOGS and who the weekend warriors with pets are. Nuff said...

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Well, it is the hunters responsibility not to be shooting when the Dog and Bird are too close...And why would a Dog that started early have to go by sight alone?


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Originally Posted by battue
Well, it is the hunters responsibility not to be shooting when the Dog and Bird are too close...And why would a Dog that started early have to go by sight alone?

For conversation, the Bird came down in here and took off running. What where they going to chase by sight. Weekend warriors looking for expert advice...

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

How far would they see in the cornfield???

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Weekend warrior question...was he only looking for where the Bird went???? Thanks in advance.....

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

He brought him out of that mess in the background...I'll tell ya, that Dog had fighter pilot vision....And he wasn't a weekend warrior. smile Admittedly he lacked style points....but few cripples escaped.


][Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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Another reason I see little advantage of having them sit inside this until released is of any benefit, Most likely they are going to have to use their nose...and a good Dog his ears also...and time would be slipping away.

Amazing the amount of pics one can take in a weekend.... laugh

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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Ghostman, has drank the Kool-Aid, of the field trial crowd, which is? make the dog fit what he wants it to be not what the dog is, make it fit the mold so i can be big deal among the in crowd.

It's a Judged event, how many time have you heard that Judge Sucks?? or it's politics? the ground is no good? the birds suck? it's to windy? it's to Hot? that dog does not fit the Standard?? That guy's the judges best friend?

Ghostman, I think your a EXPERT, you know what that is? it's someone that's Quit Learning.

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Ghostman,

I hunt birds, 4-5 day's a week from Sept 1st till Feb 28th every year, i'm damn sure no weekend Hunter, I keep 35 to 40 dogs going all season, we take hunters from all over the world, that have hunted all over the world, that know good dogs when they see them.
We are not hunting pen raised birds, all wild birds, 70% of the Quail knocked down hit the ground running, a dog without a good nose is worthless to us, our environment, is not farm fields, ( wish it was) every thing here will Stab you, Sting you, Bite you, our dogs have to know, there's a Rattler there, or there's pig's here, every day is a Field Trail. Rio7

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battue, I love your dogs, would love to hunt with you some day. Rio7

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Last years pups. Rio7

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Well thank you and you never know. However, my Dogs will mostly do OK. One was great and the others bordered on good. What we try to do is hunt we’re there are a lot of Birds. Which does make a difference come picture taking time.😂

The great one would find you a Bird when they were few, but he learned on many.

The trials and tests are responsible for some great bloodlines for hunting Dogs….but they are a different game, and their standards don’t always correlate to the hunting fields.


Bud has a very good Setter with a deadly nose. I’ve seen him walk into the high grass and go immediately on cautious alert. His tail doesn’t starch high. The field trial crew would flunk him out. He is a damn fine Bird Dog and has a better nose and more brains than most who will get a ribbon

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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That is the way they are supposed to look!!!!

You have that Texas Quail place. I’ve been tempted. 😁

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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battue, Nothing more fun than a good dog!! mine look that way on their own I don't try to teach them to, I don't really care, if they pose, if they can find birds., birds make bird dogs. very dry here now, sand burr's are terrible, my 2 Setters are clipped to look almost like English Pointers, we need rain bad, but we have Quail. pairs are nesting now. Rio7

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I'm hoping SD also gets some extra rain soon...Like your place they and the Birds need it.


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..and it takes a cool hand to shoot well on a covey of Wild Quail. Here…here…no here…and they are gone!!!! An explosion of the Wild ones is an event!!!!

I was embarrassed more than once..and I was younger and quicker.


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"Ghostman, has drank the Kool-Aid, of the field trial crowd, which is? make the dog fit what he wants it to be not what the dog is, make it fit the mold so i can be big deal among the in crowd."

Rio, Ignorance is bliss.....it's obvious you don't get it and probably never will regardless of how many dogs you've owned.

AGAIN, HUNT TESTS, NAVHDA and the German hunt tests are NOT FIELD TRIALS and there is no competition. Dogs are judged against a written STANDARD, The dog either does it or not. It either passes or fails. There is very little if any politics involved. What is so hard to understand?

IF your dogs are all that and a bag of chips why not PROVE IT?. Anyone can run their mouth and say their dog is good.
It's another for a dog to achieve a hunting title at the highest level that's a pleasure to hunt over instead of a point stealing, breaking/chasing idiot that's out of control for most of the hunt. Testing/Titling shows strengths and weaknesses across several areas/traits, which can & will improve breedings. It has nothing to do with "being a big deal in the crowd".

Owning Setter and Pointers it's kind of ironic that you're so against force fetch retrieving. From my experience Pointers especially are a breed that need it most.

The Germans have a saying when it comes to dogs....Those with one dog usually have a good dog. Those with many usually have nothing.

It's obvious our opinions differ greatly when it comes to training dogs. You feed what you like and I'll do the same.

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