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Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I leave it off all the time except when cycling unfired rounds. The rebounding hammer is nothing more than a forced half cock. I didn't know if I would like either but they've become non-issues.

I wish my Remington-made Marlins said Made In Japan. They'd probably be much better if they did.
Probably very true. The Nips don't mess around. They make good stuff

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I had an 1886. My only complaint was the crescent butt plate. It seemed to exaggerate recoil for me. And when PA went to an antler restrictions, I needed the scope.
I sold it off for a Marlin 1895XLR

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I only have one - it has 1 of 500 lettered on the side. It's a heavy octagon barreled 45-70. It wears my favorite sights for lever action rifles, a Steel Lyman aperture sight. I have not shot it enough.
I started fitting a shotgun style butt stock, but never finished it. The gun is heavy, maybe the heaviest rifle I own??? I think heavier than a couple bull barrel bolt guns that I own. I thought it might be a collector item someday.

Last edited by Bugger; 05/23/22.

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Originally Posted by WStrayer
I had an 1886. My only complaint was the crescent butt plate. It seemed to exaggerate recoil for me. And when PA went to an antler restrictions, I needed the scope.
I sold it off for a Marlin 1895XLR

I don't care for a crescent butt plate either. But the 1892 I have doesn't recoil that hard. I had them on other guns, including a Hawken BP. Loved the gun, but hated that butt plate. Sold and bought a different Hawken style with a flat butt and recoil pad.

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I like a crescent butt for a hunting rifle.

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Jake must have learned to shoot a crescent butt plate correctly. I learned the first time I shot mine from a bench rest.

Quite simple really, and those that tried and failed to learn have only themselves to blame.


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I shoot ground squirrels and jackrabbits out of my friend's alfalfa all the time with my Miroku-made "Winchester" Lo-Wall .22 WRM.

I had a heck of a time finding a scope mount for it but once I got a little Leupold Compact on it, it became one of my favorites. Handy, accurate, and beautiful. And it even likes unleaded ammo!


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Crescents are what they are. They're intuitive. You don't even have to shoot them to figure out where they have to be seated on the shoulder. I just don't think they are particulary comfortable. My Hawken didn't have enough stock drop to line the sights up without leaning my head over on the rear of the stock instead of having a more comfortable cheek weld. They're supposed to be like that, and that's fine. But I don't care for it. It's not about shooting them improperly.

Last edited by 10Glocks; 05/24/22.
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OK, buckle up and I will attempt to illustrate the difference of original Winchester, Miroku Winchesters and Miroku Brownings...

First of all, I have owned, shot and hunted with every generation of these guns and continue to look for and buy the right model when I see one. I have loved these guns since I was a kid and haven't grown tired of them. I have found, however, that there are significant differences between several models.

Starting with Winchester, there is a distinct difference in how the original guns were made and how Miroku made them throughout the 80's, 90's and how they make them now.

Original Winchesters are a work of art that can be used, unlike paintings and sculptures. I have quite a few and they continue to impress me with the quality of their manufacture compared to what we have available now. You can still find original Winchesters that aren't too expensive and use them like they were meant to be used. I have shot all sorts of big game as well as small game with them and will continue to do so into the future.

Compare the original to the Browning guns of the early 1980's and you will see that the Browning guns are every bit as good, if not better made than the original Winchesters. If you ever hold a B92 or one of the Browning marked 1886's, you will notice just how good they look and feel. This is not true with the later Miroku made Winchesters.

I bought one of the Winchester 1886 SRC in 45-70 when they were first introduced, and they were excellent in the fit and finish, but if you tried to open the action just a bit to check to see if it was loaded, it would jam and you couldn't close the action back up like you could with the originals, or the Browning.

That may seem insignificant, but it happened and it did that with every Winchester I tried. I talked to Winchester, they didn't have a solution, I had a gunsmith polish the action and it would still jam. Again, that may be insignificant, but it happened...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The current and most recent Winchester offerings have been a disappointment. The 92's are not the quality that the Browning B92 was for a number of reasons. Whether you like it or not, the tang safety is a poor idea and worse is the rebounding hammer. Fit and finish isn't what it was with the B92 either. If you can't see the difference, you haven't looked close or you have never seen a B92.

The modern Winchester 1886 is not the quality of the Browning guns either. The wood is bland, the dimensions are wrong for the forearms and the wood to metal fit is only average. Because of that, I have not and won't own the current Winchester 1886. Compare the Browning to the original and you can see the same quality...


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I do have a modern Winchester 1873 SRC in 38/357 and my wife shoots it in Cowboy Action matches. It works with her Uberti 38's that she also shots. It is OK, but still not as good as an original. You can see the wood isn't in the correct dimension on the forearm and the finish is unfinished. Wood to metal fit is only so-so. You can also see the gap of the magazine tube and barrel isn't right either. It doesn't have the rebounding hammer or safety, so it is still a decent Cowboy gun and still better than a Marlin.


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

As far as the Winchester 1895's go, they suffer from the same afflictions mentioned before. The original 1895's are still affordable and shooting an original will always beat shooting a reproduction, especially in the true 1895 calibers such as 38-72 and 40-72. There is a cool factor there that no modern gun can replicate...


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

All said and done, the modern Winchester replica will work, but it just isn't a Browning or original Winchester by a significant margin. Many people still like them and shoot them with good results. The choice is yours, but there is a difference, you have to decide for yourself...




[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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I appreciate you knowledge of original Winchesters, and certainly your collection, but I am still at a loss as to how Browning-marked and Winchester-marked Mirokus are different. They aren't made by different companies. The Browning B92 I owned and the Winchester 1892 I own are both made for Browning in the Miroku factory in Kochi, Japan. The only difference is that FN acquired Browning, and Browning acquired the right to use the Winchester name on their reproductions. But the Miroku product is the same. I haven't detected any degraded quality in my 1892 from the BL92 I owned.

These three Winchesters I own are the only Winchester repros I have, but I have several other Mirokus: BLR in .308, BLR in .358, XBolt in .30-06, XBolt in .270, BL22 x 2, SA-22, Auto 5, Citori, and maybe some others I'm foregetting. I've had Belgian made SA-22, BLR and Auto 5 and compared them to the Miroku-made guns, the Mirokus seems finished and fitted better and were every bit as reliable. As far as the BLR, I believe the present BLR is a better design than the older BLRs.

So I get what you are saying. I haven't seen any degraded quality in these lever guns marked Browning and the same guns marked Winchester. As far as the safety goes, that's entirely subjective. I don't mind it. I carry my levers, whether Marlins or Winchesters, with the safety off and on half cock (or hammer rebounded in the case of the Winchesters), and the only time the safety is on is when I am cycling rounds through it. It's a non-issue for me.

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I have no problem with mine, but I guess I'm not as bright as Shrapnel. I could do without the rebounding hammer/safety, but they work just fine and look better than any Winchester I could buy for under $20K

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Browning did make some high grade guns when they produced them under their own name. Most of the guns with the Winchester name aren't high grade, but some are. Comparing finishes and wood on a high grade gun to a workaday gun seems like a miscomparison. Obviously, the high grade gun will be finished more nicely. And of course the Winchester marked gun have the safeties purists don't like, and which the Brownings didn't have. I get that, but that's subjective.

As far as the wood goes, the Winchesters have standard walnut on them, not wood for high grade models. But can still look good:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

And as far as fit and finish, it's perfectly fine. Better than anything that came out of New Haven in anything like recent history:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by 10Glocks; 05/24/22.
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Originally Posted by JakeDog
I have no problem with mine, but I guess I'm not as bright as Shrapnel. I could do without the rebounding hammer/safety, but they work just fine and look better than any Winchester I could buy for under $20K


It’s not how bright you are, it is how observant you are. I showed the difference in a few pictures, you didn’t look or can’t see them.

Do they still work? Absolutely. Are they as well made? Absolutely not.

There are thousands of Winchesters under $20,000.00 that will shame the current offerings, but you don’t have to have one to have satisfaction in owning a lever action rifle. People even think Henry rifles are great.

This isn’t a debate on what works or what doesn’t, just an effort to show the difference…


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First, I'm not trying to argue with you. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue. Discussion is how reasonable people either come to a meeting of the minds, or respectfully disagree.

You did write some things that perhaps ought to be expanded on:

Quote
there is a distinct difference in how the original guns were made and how Miroku made them throughout the 80's, 90's and how they make them now.

What's that difference? I'm not speaking to the safety. I'm speaking to manufacturing processes, metalurgy, etc. Why do you believe the Miroku makes a worse gun under the Winchester name than they did under the Browning name, when they are both made for Browning (Browning owns Winchester)? Again, I'm not talking about subjective dislikes, like the safety. Why would Browning okay Miroku reducing quality on their guns just because of a name change?

Quote
If you ever hold a B92 ..., you will notice just how good they look and feel. This is not true with the later Miroku made Winchesters.

It is in my experience, I've owned both. Just curious what your specific observation was that leads you to this opinion?

Quote
I bought one of the Winchester 1886 SRC in 45-70 when they were first introduced, and they were excellent in the fit and finish, but if you tried to open the action just a bit to check to see if it was loaded, it would jam and you couldn't close the action back up like you could with the originals, or the Browning.

I have not experienced that with my 1886 Extra Light. I've only run factory ammo through it: Federal Fusion 300 gr, Remington 300gr and 405gr, and LeverEvolution, all without a hickup. You, unfortunately experienced malfunctions on every Miroku Winchester 1886 you tried. I can't explain it. I've never heard of, or read, anyone else experiencing a 100% failure rate on the Miroku 1886s. But I also don't read a lot of forums.

Quote
The 92's are not the quality that the Browning B92 was for a number of reasons. Whether you like it or not, the tang safety is a poor idea and worse is the rebounding hammer. Fit and finish isn't what it was with the B92 either. If you can't see the difference, you haven't looked close or you have never seen a B92.

The safety is a subjective dislike and not a quality issue. I understand purists don't like it. But aside from the safety, what is the difference in quality between a 1892 with a Browning name and one with a Winchester name, and more importan tly, why would Miroku, who made both suddenly reduce quality when its roll marked Winchester? Here is disagree with you, because with respect to the 1892, I have owned both, and both were stellar. And again, let's not compare a high grade or commemorative rifles to a workaday gun. High end guns are supposed to be finished better. Both my 1892s were blued and walnut, as basic as they come.

Quote
As far as the Winchester 1895's go, they suffer from the same afflictions mentioned before. The original 1895's are still affordable and shooting an original will always beat shooting a reproduction, especially in the true 1895 calibers such as 38-72 and 40-72. There is a cool factor there that no modern gun can replicate...

Here I agree with you - the originals are cooler. No argument. I have a 1901 made Marlin 1893 takedown with an octagon barrel in .30-30 that my great grandfather hunted turkey with in Pennsylvania. It's a great gun and it's way cooler than any other I own. But it doesn't mean my other Marlins are bad. They're just different. And the newer guns are more reliable. My 1893 jams occassionally. But cool is, again, subjective.

I haven't heard of specific mechanical or quality issues with the Miroku 1895s. I have read opinions from people that own both originals and repros who hold a diametrically opposite position - that they think the Miroku is better. But they don't give much in the way of a reason, either.

Last edited by 10Glocks; 05/24/22.
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Much ado about nothing!
Bitch and whine, whine and bitch -- has become so tiresome. I buy Winchesters because they meet my hunting needs. If they do not meet your needs, shoot something else!

I shoot the rifles with safeties and without the safeties with the same result -- DEAD GAME.

To each his own and buy what you like, but please stop whining and bragging /complaining about it. Take your gun and go shooting with it.

Who cares what someone else thinks about your rifle if it works for you and you like it.


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Originally Posted by crshelton
Jake must have learned to shoot a crescent butt plate correctly. I learned the first time I shot mine from a bench rest.

Quite simple really, and those that tried and failed to learn have only themselves to blame.

I have been shooting them for well over 50 years and still do not like them . Given the choice I will always take a shotgun butt or carbine/musket style over a crescent any day. I know the correct way to use them and the others are still by far the more comfortable to shoot.


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I had the hammer spring modified on my Miroku’s hammer spring. The guy volunteered to modify it. He claimed that the rebounding hammer sometimes would not hit the firing pin hard enough to reliably fire the cartridge. I don’t know about that, but the guy swore up and down that was a problem. I’ve asked an outfit that converts the hammer back to original Winchester but the cost was pretty high, I thought.
As far as crescent vs. shotgun butt, I too prefer the shotgun butt. Yes, I do know how to use the crescent butt.
As far as the rear sight I very much dislike the sight the Miroku’s have. I understand that back in the day the buckhorn sight was used to help the hunter adjust for elevation. Maybe if my only rifle had the buckhorn sight and I used the rifle daily to gather food for the table I’d get used to the sight and master it. As is I don’t like buckhorn sights.


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Originally Posted by Bugger
I had the hammer spring modified on my Miroku’s hammer spring. The guy volunteered to modify it. He claimed that the rebounding hammer sometimes would not hit the firing pin hard enough to reliably fire the cartridge. I don’t know about that, but the guy swore up and down that was a problem.

I've read that, and have yet to experience it. Maybe someone had a really hard primer or something. Never experienced it in my Winchesters, nor my Sig Sauer pistols that have rebounding hammers.

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Originally Posted by crshelton
Much ado about nothing!
Bitch and whine, whine and bitch -- has become so tiresome. I buy Winchesters because they meet my hunting needs. If they do not meet your needs, shoot something else!

I shoot the rifles with safeties and without the safeties with the same result -- DEAD GAME.

To each his own and buy what you like, but please stop whining and bragging /complaining about it. Take your gun and go shooting with it.

Who cares what someone else thinks about your rifle if it works for you and you like it.

But what would the majority of campfire members do then?

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Have yet to have a rebounding hammer not work properly. Still don't like them, but then I grew up with old levers.

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