24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
Bugger Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
I have read in places - I know longer know where - that the 458 was a difficult cartridge to get to shoot cast bullets in.
I read Ken Waters Pet Loads article again, regarding the 458. He complains about the difficulty in getting cast bullets to shoot but then he did get a couple good cast bullet loads.

Those of you that have 458’s, have you had luck in getting cast loads to shoot accurately?


Life member NRA
I prefer classic.
Member of the VVA - Semper Fi - SGT E5
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise.
BP-B2

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 28,287
J
Campfire Oracle
Online Content
Campfire Oracle
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 28,287
Originally Posted by Bugger
I have read in places - I know longer know where - that the 458 was a difficult cartridge to get to shoot cast bullets in.
I read Ken Waters Pet Loads article again, regarding the 458. He complains about the difficulty in getting cast bullets to shoot but then he did get a couple good cast bullet loads.

Those of you that have 458’s, have you had luck in getting cast loads to shoot accurately?

Bullet hardness matter in rifles, with lunedì bullets the harder the more accurate. Also diameter should be above bore diameter should be at least .460 or larger.

Powder coating is more forgiving with regards to hardness



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
Ditto jwp475.

Ken Waters did not do justice to the .458 WM
regarding cast bullets.
He tried only a few plain-base, soft alloy bullets.
Sort of an afterthought not as good as his jacketed work. Just some beginner fumbling with cast.


Gil Sengel did a .458 WM "Special" with a short throat and slow twist,
and he did no better than can be done
with the standard SAAMI .458 WM.

Paul Matthews did some of the best
published work showing the .458 WM throat
is ideal for paper-patched and duplexed BP loads.
He did it with a Ruger No. 1 factory rifle, IIRC.

I push hard alloy cast bullets through a .460" sizer after powder-coat painting,
gas check goes on with the sizing.
My alloy springs back to .461" when it pops out of the sizer.
Most factory .458 WM rifles have .459" groove diameter grooves.
.461" bullet size is good in them.
Bullet weights from 400 to 600 grains are good with the above treatment,
MOA capable to 2200 fps.

If you want to use soft-alloy, plain-base
bullets with grease lube
you may get OK results if you keep velocity
down to about 1600 fps,
as long as the bullet size is .460" to .461".
A .459"-diameter, similar bullet
will be inaccurate at MV over 1400 fps,
in my experience.

For paper-patched in the SAAMI .458 WM,
use a soft-alloy slick
no harder than 10 BHN of roughly bore diameter (.450" to .452") and patch it up to groove diameter or +.001.
Use a grease cookie under the bullet and
smack it with duplexed BP.
Works Well in a 1:14" twist.
No blow tube or wiping required for 50 shots or more.

PC paint and hard alloy (BHN 25) with smokeless and .461" diameter bullet: Minimal or no leading.
Even up to 2200 fps with gas check.



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
Bugger Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
Thanks for the information. I have molds for most of my rifles. (Not 20 or 17). The molds I have for the 45 caliber rifles are both with and without GC.


Life member NRA
I prefer classic.
Member of the VVA - Semper Fi - SGT E5
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise.
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 859
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 859
I knew it was about close to 45-90 45-100 in capacity but I learned something reading this. I'm always impressed what some folks know about casting, sizing and getting alloys to work.

IC-A B3

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 348
F
Campfire Regular
Online Content
Campfire Regular
F
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 348
The 458 WM is a fine and capable cast cartridge. What Rifle Crank says plus bhn 12-18 is fine for me up to 1950 or so. I don’t need any faster than that to kill what I want to kill. I let the flat nose do it’s work.
Fit is everything in cast. Well except for a leettle bit of black arts / luck / blessings from Saint Bagwell as you prefer.
Cast really shows your rifle your load kind of things.

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
Bugger Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
Thanks for the information guys. I have a couple 45-70’s and a 45-90.
I was pretty sure I read some things such as, “The 458 has too long a throat for cast bullets.”
Then Ken Waters article didn’t show much hope.
If I re-barrel a rifle to 458, I’ll likely shoot only cast bullets in it. The 45-90 and one 45-70 has only had cast bullets down the tube. I have shot some jacketed in one of my 45-70’s (a Marlin). Because Marlins have a limited length that doesn’t allow cast bullets that I like, unless the bullet is deeply seated.
I’d think a ~ 400 grain blunt/flat nose cast bullet traveling in the neighborhood of 1,800 fps should kill whatever I’d likely be shooting.
The market is flooded with 7mm RM rifles and they can be had pretty cheap (I like the 7mm RM a lot by the way.)
Re-barreling to 458 would likely increase the value of the rifle about as much as the cost - maybe.

Last edited by Bugger; 05/16/22.

Life member NRA
I prefer classic.
Member of the VVA - Semper Fi - SGT E5
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise.
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
Fury01 has found a sweet spot load in his rifle, not hard to do with the .458 WinMag.
Cast Bullet Denial is another symptom of Anti-.458 Winchester Magnum Syndrome sufferers.
The .458 WinMag lives rent free in their heads.
Joe Biden would call the .458 WinMag "King .458 Winchester Ultra Magnum" and think he was being insulting to the cartridge.
How ironically funny it is when Joe Biden tries to make up insulting nick names.
Trumped by Trump again !

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
Originally Posted by Bugger
I’d think a ~ 400 grain blunt/flat nose cast bullet traveling in the neighborhood of 1,800 fps should kill whatever I’d likely be shooting.
The market is flooded with 7mm RM rifles and they can be had pretty cheap (I like the 7mm RM a lot by the way.)
Re-barreling to 458 would likely increase the value of the rifle about as much as the cost - maybe.

Welcome, Bugger, get that .458 WinMag shooting and become a Knight of the Square Table.

400-gr FN at 1800 fps from the .458 WinMag would make it into an elk killer like Elmer Keith preferred in the timber with .45-70 Lever Action.
Just size it properly, gas check might be preferrable to plain base, but not necessarily, BHN 15 or higher.
Success is guaranteed by trying AA-5744 with no filler.
Start about 40.0 grains and quit at 1800 fps.
Too many other powders to shake a stick at will do it also.



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,376
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,376
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
My alloy springs back to .461" when it pops out of the sizer

Curious - I would not have anticipated lead to exhibit "spring back"

A buddy of mine who shoots cast in the .458 swears by TrailBoss and XBR-8208.

I shot some .375 (sized .377) cast bullets in my wildcat .375-338 and it shot fine with Unique, W231 and IMR-4227 at around 1,200 fps

IC-B B4

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
Surprised me too.
Soft lead alloys size true to the sizer.
Hard lead alloys besides being bigger in diameter as cast,
size to about 0.001" bigger than the sizer die nominal.
I have both Lee and CH4D sizing dies that are supposed to be 0.460" diameter, and I believe they both are.
Copper jacket with soft lead core will spring back about 0.002".
Monometal copper and monometal brass do same or a little more, maybe 0.0025".



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
Another favorite:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

In the Let's Go Brandon era, casting your own bullets is a good thing.
We may have to learn to make our own gunpowder and primers before they let Brandon go.
At least the brass will last forever with good cast bullet loads.



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
Bugger Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
I just bought another mold from NOE ~~ 400 grain flat nose GC 460 diameter.


Life member NRA
I prefer classic.
Member of the VVA - Semper Fi - SGT E5
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise.
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
You have done well, for the King of Cartridges

[Linked Image]

It is the King of Cast Bullets too.



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,263
G
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
G
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,263
Tag

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
Bugger Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 7,438
I found another article on cast bullets for the 458 written by Al Miller for Handloader 87 September-October 1980. Here’s a photo of the chart he produced.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Life member NRA
I prefer classic.
Member of the VVA - Semper Fi - SGT E5
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise.
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
That is hilarious.
Al Miller didn't do it justice either.
At least it does show how fast 74.0 grains of H335 will make a 510-grain Lyman cast bullet go
from a 24" Ruger No. 1: 2185 fps 5-yard instrumental.
Unfortunately, it was sized to .459" and only fired 3 times, from kneeling
Torque and fear of dislocated shoulder, despite Allen shooting coat and strap-on pad ?
I have only noticed torque when shooting a .577 Tyrannosaur fully loaded.
Al needs to get a better grip and practice with a lighter load
before going to 2200 fps with 500-grainers.

Here is just the practice load for him.
First, here is the rifle that revived my interest in the .458 WinMag, and my first decent cast bullet load for it in 2017,
it is a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action with a take-off CZ barrel set back 1/8" and rethreaded and re-chambered
with a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,736
So my rifle is like a pig on lipstick and my bullets are like lipstick on a pig
and pigs do fly:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

Link Copied to Clipboard
CTV-TRX
Who's Online Now
602 members (10ring1, 1beaver_shooter, 1234, 10gaugemag, 160user, 63 invisible), 1,951 guests, and 1,211 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3-22

UDG-IP









Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2022 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.070s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 0.9522 MB (Peak: 1.1229 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2022-06-29 21:31:17 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS