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I've got both & it depends upon how you load the 45-70. With factory loads suitable for the older rifles it's not too bad. If you load it full bore then you can get it to almost 458 Win Mag levels and it's a bitch.

The 45-70 can be anything from mild to wild or anywhere in between. If you stand on it in a modern rifle with heavier bullets it'll rattle your teeth worse than the 338 ever will.

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I have a .45-70 Trapper and a light .338 W.M. with brake. I can't say I feel much difference between the 2.

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Chucks Hawkes recoil table shows the heaviest .338 load at over 35 foot pounds of recoil and the heaviest 45-70 at 37.9 foot pounds and the velocity is higher for the 45-70 too. And the heaviest load he shows for the 45-70 is 350 grains at 1900 fps. You can load it a good bit hotter than that.

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Thanks all.

I had a stainless Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70 and I found it fine to shoot with the Hornady LeverEvolution 325 grain loads, but ammo availability compelled me to sell it on, in favour of a Ruger 77 Mk II .338WM I have owned for a few years but haven't shot yet.

Figured the Ruger would be a better subarctic fit for me, as the 250 grainers are easy to find. It's a little longer and a little heavier, but the stock suits scopes better, it's easier to take down and probably much more rugged.

Last edited by philthygeezer; 05/24/22.
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I have had 4ea 338’s. I mainly shot 250 grain Partitions. Two 700’s and two 70’s. I’ve switched to 300 Weatherby and 200 grain partitions (700 Remington)
I have a couple 45-70’s. One is a very light Marlin, not sure how that compares to yours.
The light 45-70 seems to rap my right hand more than kick my shoulder. My heaviest loads in it are heavy cast and are loaded stout.

I mainly shoot the 45-70 off hand and I’ve shot those 338’s a lot off hand and off the bench. I’m thinking that maybe a dozen shots from the bench with those 338 loads make up a day.

I can’t answer your question directly I guess, but they are both manageable. I’ve taken the 45-70 PD shooting and my buddies didn’t appreciate it all that much. Never thought of taken the 338 shooting PD’s.


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I have owned both and still have the 338. I had a highly customized 45-70 (guide gun) and sold it at a loss. For mild loads, it was fine. For the hot stuff, it was another story. The stock drop was terrible for recoil, and it was hard on the knuckles, and the lever throw seemed so long that at least to me, it was not really any faster than working a bolt action.

I don't know if my 338 WM with 250 gr bullets kicks any less according to a recoil chart, but it seems easier to manage, maybe just due to the straighter stock. I don't think it's any slower to run than a hard-kicking 45-70.

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Me too. Owned both. Tricked out the Marlin with all the bells and whistles. Kicked like a mule and sold it at a substantial loss but was happy the day it shipped off. Still have the bolt action .338. Much more manageable in my humble opinion.

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Seems like I made the right decision. The .338 adds about 5 inches to the length of the rifle, but I think the perception is greater than the actual difference in handiness. We can all take a 26" 20 gauge 870 into the field after grouse and call it light and handy, but a shorter rifle is somehow unwieldy in the same bush.

Last edited by philthygeezer; 05/25/22.
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My book if they're both factory loads 330 it's going to kick a lot more. I have some hand loads that have been proven very safe 405 grain bullets at 1825 ft per second enough to live in the f*** out of you on both ends. And that was in an 18 1/2-in barrel 4570

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The nice thing about the 45-70 is there is over the counter loads that make it a pussycat. Several years ago due to medical issues I couldn't handle much recoil. I was still able to hunt with my 45-70 with Remington 405's

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I have not shot a Marlin Guide Gun but have shot my 1886 with steel carbine butt plate. It weighs ~7 lbs. My .338 weighs ~9 lbs with scope. I don't care to shoot the 45-70 even with light loads from the bench but can shoot the .338 quite a bit. I do have a pre 64 .300 H&H with steel butt plate and would rather shoot that than the 45-70. Once I put a Simms slip-on recoil pad on the 45-70, I can shoot 400g bullets at 2000 fps fairly comfortably. It still seems to move me around more than the .338 however due to the shape of the stock.

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Originally Posted by philthygeezer
Seems like I made the right decision. The .338 adds about 5 inches to the length of the rifle, but I think the perception is greater than the actual difference in handiness. We can all take a 26" 20 gauge 870 into the field after grouse and call it light and handy, but a shorter rifle is somehow unwieldy in the same bush.


Wow! Living with both, I’m very surprised to find that you consider the shorter, 45-70 to be “unwieldy” in the timber/brush……that’s were the GG is most at home!


From short range to 600+ yards, I consider the .338 WM, to possibly be the best “all around” factory produced cartridge.

However, for timber/brush, where shots would very rarely exceed 200 yards and portability/quick handling is at a premium…..the little Guide Gun simply excels! I’ve heard the stories about the 45-70 recoil, but was pleasantly surprised to find out my hand loads, which have substantially more recoil than factory 45-70 ammo at original pressures were very comfortable to shoot from the bench! I have a good recoil pad on my rifle, perhaps if it were the old steel buttplate I would have a vastly different opinion! But, this is JMO! memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Originally Posted by memtb
Originally Posted by philthygeezer
Seems like I made the right decision. The .338 adds about 5 inches to the length of the rifle, but I think the perception is greater than the actual difference in handiness. We can all take a 26" 20 gauge 870 into the field after grouse and call it light and handy, but a shorter rifle is somehow unwieldy in the same bush.


Wow! Living with both, I’m very surprised to find that you consider the shorter, 45-70 to be “unwieldy” in the timber/brush……that’s were the GG is most at home!


From short range to 600+ yards, I consider the .338 WM, to possibly be the best “all around” factory produced cartridge.

However, for timber/brush, where shots would very rarely exceed 200 yards and portability/quick handling is at a premium…..the little Guide Gun simply excels! I’ve heard the stories about the 45-70 recoil, but was pleasantly surprised to find out my hand loads, which have substantially more recoil than factory 45-70 ammo at original pressures were very comfortable to shoot from the bench! I have a good recoil pad on my rifle, perhaps if it were the old steel buttplate I would have a vastly different opinion! But, this is JMO! memtb

I didn't find the GG to be unwieldy at all. The comment was more that I think a 24" bolt action sporter isn't that unweildy either, especially if you count running around with a pump gun after small game. And there are tradeoffs, as I found out when going from a 24" M70 to an 18.5" Model Seven. IMO the muzzle blast and decreased accuracy was a bridge too far. I think a 22" FWT is the right balance at just over 7 lbs scoped.

I like the Guide Gun, but the simplicity and take down of the bolt gun wins it for me. Ammo is more plentiful and scopes are easier too.

I plan on running 210 grain TSXs in it, so that might take some of the wrath out of the recoil.

Last edited by philthygeezer; 05/26/22.
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Originally Posted by philthygeezer
Originally Posted by memtb
Originally Posted by philthygeezer
Seems like I made the right decision. The .338 adds about 5 inches to the length of the rifle, but I think the perception is greater than the actual difference in handiness. We can all take a 26" 20 gauge 870 into the field after grouse and call it light and handy, but a shorter rifle is somehow unwieldy in the same bush.


Wow! Living with both, I’m very surprised to find that you consider the shorter, 45-70 to be “unwieldy” in the timber/brush……that’s were the GG is most at home!


From short range to 600+ yards, I consider the .338 WM, to possibly be the best “all around” factory produced cartridge.

However, for timber/brush, where shots would very rarely exceed 200 yards and portability/quick handling is at a premium…..the little Guide Gun simply excels! I’ve heard the stories about the 45-70 recoil, but was pleasantly surprised to find out my hand loads, which have substantially more recoil than factory 45-70 ammo at original pressures were very comfortable to shoot from the bench! I have a good recoil pad on my rifle, perhaps if it were the old steel buttplate I would have a vastly different opinion! But, this is JMO! memtb

I didn't find the GG to be unwieldy at all. The comment was more that I think a 24" bolt action sporter isn't that unweildy either, especially if you count running around with a pump gun after small game. And there are tradeoffs, as I found out when going from a 24" M70 to an 18.5" Model Seven. IMO the muzzle blast and decreased accuracy was a bridge too far. I think a 22" FWT is the right balance at just over 7 lbs scoped.

I like the Guide Gun, but the simplicity and take down of the bolt gun wins it for me. Ammo is more plentiful and scopes are easier too.

I plan on running 210 grain TSXs in it, so that might take some of the wrath out of the recoil.



In spite of my comments, I certainly respect your decision on using the .338 WM. My wife loves her .338 WM, her only hunting rifle, and uses 225 TTSX’s for all of her hunting!

Good Luck and enjoy…..the .338 WM is a great cartridge! memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Though I have not hunted in an area where a short barreled rifle was needed due to brush in a very long time. I built a specialized rifle for that, a 350 Rem Mag on a 600 action.
The short rifles have an advantage, in my opinion, that doesn’t have to do with brush. They are quicker to get on target.
The longer rifles, in general, are easier to shoot accurately if the shooter has time - and more than likely would at the extreme range your considering.
My light 45-70 had a faster recoil, but I’m not sure that it had a heavier recoil.
Wanting a brush rifle and a long range rifle seems to me to be wanting opposites.


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So subjective however in general an 8.5lbs 338 Win Mag with right stock and 250 gr bullets at 2,650 fps is no where near the felt recoil of a 45-70, 400 gr load from a 6.75lbs lever carbine at 1,950 fps, especially if that lever gun has a straight stock in lieu of a pistol grip stock. You’re roughly looking at mid to upper 30s ft-lbs of recoil for a 338 Win Mag vs mid to upper 40s ft-lbs of recoil for the 45-70. That 400 gr bullet in a light platform with a lever in hand is quite uncomfortable to shoot at 1,950 fps. I’ve shot both from bench work and would much rather touch off 12 rounds of 338 Win Mag in lieu of 6 rounds of the 45-70. But that’s just me.

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Ouch. The Hornady Leverevolutions felt mild to me. Those 400 grain loads sound more like .458 WM fatigue. I had a Ruger in .458 Lott and that rattled me, but a .375H&H was fine.

memtb: thanks! Variety is fine and I respect the lever actions too. Must be doing something well to stay popular for way over 100 years.

Last edited by philthygeezer; 06/01/22.
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Don't have a 45/70, but have shot a 444 Marlin since 1981...not much real world difference, IMHO..

I also have a couple of 338 Win Mags...

For the 444, my standard loads consist of using a 300 gr XTP bullet, and then loads can vary depending on the application and distance to be used..

powder I've used for years has been SR 4759.. and I bought about 5 eight pound containers of it before it was discontinued...

my charges are usually one of the following with the 300 gr XTP, depending on distance to be shot... 20 gr, 25, 30 gr and 35 grain.

I have used the same loads within a 338 Win Mag case for the same type of service...

depending on distances from 150 to 200 yds.. with bullet weight of Hornady 200, 225 and 250 grain SPs

once again, with 20, 25, 30 and 35 grains of SR 4759...and once again, varying on the distance to be used... from 100 to 200 yds..
where 96% of all game are taken within....

about the same is also applied to my Model 70 in 338/06....


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