Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Question for the holy guys

In a thread last week at least two people mentioned good works. One professing that they did good works and the other quoting the book of James, intimating that a Christian is to be focused on doing good works.

It is undeniable that in American Christian Theology most churches teach good works, following the law/Ten Commandments, as a way to please God. This message is anchored in the idea that there is an impact on someone’s salvation and standing with God in direct relation to performing good works.

I have a question for those that hold this view. The question is based on the scriptural truth that there is no one on this earth who is righteous. This mornings responsive reading was from Psalms 143. The words drew my thoughts back to the statements made last week.

Psalm 143:2

[2] Enter not into judgment with your servant,
for no one living is righteous before you.

This confession of David, “a man after God’s own heart” and echoed throughout scripture, quite famously in Romans 3,

How are you guys who claim righteousness and or holiness, either primarily or secondarily, measuring it? What is the evidence or actions in your life by which you measure the claim?

Romans 7:18
New International Version
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Happy Crapstar should be along shortly to cut and paste some verses

We are not under the Law, we are under Grace.

Good works are great, they are not the Way to Salvation.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. Grace leads to gratitude, humility, and repentance for those who have experienced it.

Grace is the hallmark of the Jesus experience. Grace is God knew everything about you and chose to love you anyway. Grace is there are no secrets from your Heavenly Father and He refuses not to call you one of His children. Grace is you don’t deserve it, you can’t deserve it, the word deserve isn’t even considered. Grace is grace. And the moment you start trying to ‘earn’ it, in ‘any’ way, you have done away with grace. Grace is a gift.

I truly feel that extending grace to other people is the greatest opportunity that we’ll ever have, relationally, while we’re on this earth. We are most like Jesus when we are extending grace to other people.

I came across upon, Through the Bible, with Les Feldick. Les, "Gets", It.

A Gentleman Church of the Nazrine Minister told me to look this up.

Back in the old days, charity came from the community and church.

Not the .gov.

So it was in your best interest to “do good works”.


Also, I’m of the thought good works and being humble go hand in hand.

Doing good and seeking recognition kinda cancel each out.....

By the way, I'm not, Holy, only God Jesus is Holy.

You covered a lot of ground in this post. I will share my views but it will have to come “bite sized.”

To start with, I have never been in a church where the focus was on good works…. Not one. Your statement may be correct, but that is not my experience. Jesus first, good works come second or even third. In my view, there is no amount of “good work” that will ever earn anyone the right nor even privilege … nor sufficient favor from God….to enter into God’s heaven at their death.

Your statement about “most churches teach good works…Ten Commandment as a way to please God” requires some clarification. If one is “born of the Spirit” then one might be correct to say that God would be pleased with good works….…as long as these good works are done in the right spirit and not done to bring credit to the one doing the good work. Some will do good works to enhance their own reputation….ie “…. To be seen by men…”. This is not pleasing to God and I not be surprised if God counts them as nothing.

I will comment on the other issues you raised later in the day…. Gotta go now.

TF

Works equate to reaping and sowing. Give and it shall be given unto you. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. I'd not try to obtain salvation by works. One read through the new testament, and a man could clearly understand this. They asked Jesus how to do the works of God. He replied, believe on the one who he (God) has sent. I'm not interested in the great white throne judgment. I wouldn't fare very well.

The Thief on the Cross, presumably, did not have enough time left for good works, yet Jesus said, “today you will be with me in paradise.” He was saved by faith in Christ.

Much earlier, Abraham “was considered righteous because of his faith”. Later, in the NT, Paul taught we are saved by faith alone through grace. This was rediscovered in the Reformation by Luther and others — one of the solas of the Reformation is “Sola Fide” — by faith alone.

But, as James taught, a real faith then results in good works. A believer will seek to do these out of a thankful heart. While good works will not get one to paradise, they will result in rewards once there through faith.

But, salvation is by faith alone through grace.

In Leviticus God told His people to be holy as He is holy.

In Hebrews the Bible says without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Holiness is the standard of God for His people. He doesn’t change to for the generation. Every knee will bow to Him.

The Romans 7 passage is powerful as long as we remember that when the Bible was penned there were no chapters or verses. You can’t grasp the fullness of chapter 7 until you get to the regeneration of chapter 8. There is no condemnation to those who do not walk according to the flesh. Galatians lists the works of the flesh.

Before you curse me out in the name of religion. Hear this: I want all people living to go to Heaven. I know to make it there we will have to submit to God and obey His Word.

As for the “good works” theology. Bible people that accept the fullness of Christ don’t believe nor teach that anyone is saved by good works. We also don’t try to explain away John 15:14 nor any of James.

When I read the Bible I see a holy God delivering a lost people and commanding them to be holy as well. He then regenerates us by His Spirit so that we can obey. (Romans 8:11)

Think of it this way: if God was truly happy with a would full of sinners, why did Jesus need to die? He already had that world.

Jesus came that we might have life and that more abundantly.

Blessings on you!

Some folks don't realize they need Salvation, sometimes we have to hit bottom like John Newton.

Good post.

To keep focus, the question is not meant to open up a conversation about good works theology. The question is rather specific. There are more than a few guys on this forum who recently and historically have emphasized good works as a necessity for salvation.

A primary underlying principle of this teaching is that one either works with God or alone to “be holy”.

For those who hold to this view how do you measure your good works, your successfulness in completing good works and how do you assess God’s measurement of your good works?

"Claim" (?) righteousness?
No sir, you can't "claim" it.

You don't keep "evidence" of good works.
There is no way to "measure" righteousness.
God keeps those records(?).

Ok, I will stick as close as I can to your query….

1. “Good works” are simply NOT a necessity for salvation. In it’s simplest form, this is a false and unbiblical teaching. The “underlying principle”…. that one “either works with God or alone”….. to “be holy” is a wrongheaded, untrue and biblically unsupported premise.

2. - Having said that, you are correct in your observation that there are those who do indeed “measure” their own good works. They will make a “judgment” or reach a conclusion about how they will fare when God does the judging. With only a few exceptions, these folks will do a “mind review” of their goods deeds and do a further “mind review” of their own good intentions and right attitudes…. THEN, they assess…. Themselves…..as being “worthy.”

Be sure to see here that they are making huge assumptions about how God will judge…. They assume their own judgment of themselves will a match for God’s judgments and God will be “ok” with them.

Won’t work out that way.

Jesus himself speaks of this……”Depart from me, I never knew you…”

This is pretty much what I believe and I might add, if you are truly a believer, people will notice it without you having to tell them. They will notice there is something different about you, that sets you apart from others. Good works are done voluntarily to glorify God, not to call attention to yourself.