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450 grain TSX, 79.1 grains AA2230, Speer cases, Fed 225 primer

Sir John,
Hopefully you have space in your barn for another donkey for this latest for the record:

450 grain TSX, 79.1 grains AA2230, Speer cases, Fed 225 primer

Sir Jerry's words about his reunion with the SAAMI .458 WinMag,
sounds like he had more fun than happens at any 50th Anniversary High School Class Reunion:



All true Sir Ron and lead me to do exactly what i just finished this morning, i went to ""The Alter of the SAAMI spec'd 458 WM"" to see just how much i could do at 3.340" and 500grs of Partition bullet fueled by AA-2460 powder, pics on the way, it was/is indeed eye opening LOL, so all the saami spec'd 458 men out there, be not dismayed, if you have a drop tube, some Accurate 2460 powder and 500grs of copper and lead you too can drive 2298 fps if you see the need.



IIRC Hodgdons site calls the 74gr charge of Accurate 2460 under 500 grainers at 53,000 psi, not 55, not 58, not 60, not 65K like the little 308 and 270 Winchester, and not a primer pocket swelling 75K, a lowly 53K, the 458 WM is truly a remarkable chambering, i have no pressure testing eq, but do remember the primers from the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS looked great at 2418 fps and 2350 fps respectively and the pockets are still tight, those loads happily eat 83gr 2460 with col's in the 3.560-3.580 inch neighborhood.



I would have never thought of even trying for near 2300 fps with any 500gr bullet in my old FN saami length Browning, i had already loaded a literal chit-ton of 500gr partitions at 2166 with H-335 long before hearing about 2460 powder or having the pleasure of meeting Sir Ron, but as you'll see on the target box, those old loads are accurate hammers, the 50 yard bullseye was hit with a 500gr TBSS at 2200 fps with 2460 powder and the factory barrel sights, i gave it a bit more speed to run with the 500gr pointer partitions to land within the group at 100 with the scope, which it handily does, i shot it first, then screwed the scope back on with QD rings for the 100 yard group with the 500gr partitions, also, how's that for a return to zero setup? ; ]



If one wanted to shoot the 500gr partitions or 500gr PP Woodleighs when they resume production at 2300 fps, or the 450gr TSX's at 2400+ fps you'd easily have ALL game load to 300-350+ yards, the 404 Hammers at 2500 would give you 400 yards if you know your drops, that's pretty damn versatile.



Great work by Sir Jerry.

100-yard 3-shot with scope:



50-yard bughole group with iron sights:



That Browning Safari FN M98 .458 WinMag might be the most lethal elephant rifle on the planet.
Ron "Mahohbo" Thomson used one like it to take over 6000 elephant ...
But who's counting among friends anyway? ... as he might ask.

Thank you Sir Ron, you gave me the want to get a 458 Win Mag and enjoy the fun

Great job Sir John, you're getting it done at saami too with those 450 TSX's, that wont buff out ; ]

Sir Ron, Thanks for posting the pics tonight, and earlier enlightenment from the pics a few days prior, i looked at those yesterday between rain and run chore work, went out at dark and loaded the round at 3.340 inch, gave her a good pinch with Lee die and all night to grow, pushed the button on mic this morning and still at 3.340 inch, didn't move! went to bed thinking about your earlier pictorial and remembering what i read on some other forum, hell, it may have been this one, someone was talking about us jacklegs here running the 458 long col's, using single shots, mag length actions, and trying to compare it to the lott etc, etc.

When i loaded the round at dark i knew what i was going to get on this morning, the rain lifted around 9:30, i went to work, fired a couple on the chrono, headed to the pasture, pulled scope and let loose at the box with the barrel sights, that's minute of buffalo brain at 50 yards! LOL, carried box to 100 and reinstalled scope, fired three and was already laughing hard, could see the hole getting bigger after the second shot, and bigger still on number three, got up to go get the box for pics, saw the front sight hood squenching away from the sight base, laughed some more, tip, any of you guys that want to load the great 458 WM up to it's true potential, borrow a cotton ball from your woman, rubbing alcohol the rails of the front sight base as well as rail on the sight hood, apply red loctite in grooves, wipe off excess, that's what i had to do with my M-70 458 WM+ firing 500gr TBSS's at 2350 fps.

I had to see what was possible within acceptable pressure at saami length, i hate smart mouthed rude people, wont engage, another reason i dont post in the jungle at the top of the page any longer, no need, it really sucks to try and discuss in person with those types, sucks worse when you have to roll them over on their bellies so they wont choke to death on their teeth, BTDT ; ] that said, and no pissing match parrot speak, bitching, bickering or calling names, just went to see what the old stud 458 WM was capable of at saami length, i was not disappointed.

Also Sir Ron, i dont remember your formula for converting to true muzzle velocity, if at least 18 feet from the chrono, i may have exceeded a full 2300 fps, really nice, and Thanks again Sir.

LOL 44mc, i love me some 50 cals, but these 458's are fun too!

Sir Jerry, your true muzzle velocity is definitely 2300+

GREAT! Thanks Sir John.

Yup,
For Sir Jerry's 500-gr Nosler Partition, BC = 0.389 as reported by Nosler.
If 18-feet or 6-yard velocity = 2298 fps (instrumental) at standard atmospheric conditions,
then MV = 2311 fps.

Done with a compressed load of AA-2460 and 3.340" COL in a .458 WinMag factory rifle with 24" barrel !
Your mileage may vary, so start with 74 grains and work up, for any handloaders.

Equal the SAAMI .458 Lott with a SAAMI .458 WinMag.

Beat the SAAMI .458 Lott with a wildcatted .458 WM+.

Good to go after anything, anywhere, anytime, anyhow, yup.

Perfect, many Thanks Sir Ron.

If only all gun threads could match the timber and quality of this one. Only to be expected though when we are led to the quest for truth about the Magnificent and Wonderful 458WM by the Knights of the Square Table.
F01

Sir Dennis,
Faithful Knight of the Square Table, you are wise to the ways of the universe.

Circa 2006, Hornady was loading their "Heavy Magnum" loads for the .458 WinMag.
In a 24" barrel of 1:14" twist they advertised 2260 fps MV
for 500-gr RN InterBond soft as well as for the 500-gr FMJ RN Heavy Magnum loads.

Hornady advertised same bullets loaded in the .458 Lott factory ammo
in a 24" barrel of 1:10" twist producing 2300 fps MV.

Some shooters in real life claimed to get those velocities in their rifles,
others got less.

Whatever was actually produced, that is the realistic velocity difference between
the .458 WinMag and .458 Lott when both are restricted to their SAAMI specifications.
About 40 fps.

It is little wonder that if we let the .458 WinMag go to as high a pressure as the .458 Lott MAP,
even if the .458 WinMag is restricted to 3.340" COL,
then the .458 Lott eats dust.

Sir Jerry has shown us an ultimate, winning combo,
a 500-grain Nosler Partition at +2300 fps MV
from a standard-actioned Mauser M98 with 24" barrel.

No more powerful load is needed, nor is any lighter and handier rifle needed.
In fact, one could easily do anything desired with many lesser loads
and some well-balanced weight added to that rifle !

Phil Shoemaker had an 8-pound .458 WinMag Whitworth Mauser named Old Ugly.
He added some lead to it and it became a 9-pounder named Old Ugly.
Did not improve the rifle's looks at all.

Yes, fun stuff FO1, as Sir Ron said, i have to believe a 500gr partition at 2300 fps would lay a mighty heavy blow on ANY animal one would use a soft point bullet on.

Agreed on the quality of information on this thread and documented research and exploration. Riflecrank rejuvenated my interest in the 458 Winchester sometime ago. I thank him profusely for championing & getting the 404 Hammer into production. The 400 grainers has been where my interest was in the 458's. After Barnes dropped their 400 grain offering, must interest waned. Occasionally perked up by the Federal factory loaded 400 grain Trophy Bonded. But it lacked a bit of speed and bc for my full buy in. The 404 Hammer bullet offers both.
Now much to Sir Ron's distaste for the SAMMI Lott. I am going to attempt to settle on a load for it and the 404 prior to the 458 Winchester. Mainly because I have a rifle in the Lott that I am really try to like a lot.
In hind sight, I should have skipped the Lott and put together a stainless 458 Winchester as I was originally going to do. Actually that is still on the agenda.
After this Lott load is done. It will be time for the 458 Winchester. That should be simple & easy enough since the guys on here have already invented the wheel. And have it rolling along exceptionally well.
This research definitely has me wanting for a stainless 458 Winchester on a 3.6" action. I think, I have the solution for that.

Sir Larry,
Condolences on the .458 Lott rifle.
I know the misery of such ownership.
You will be able to load the 404gr Shock Hammer to 3.58" COL only.
The .458 WinMag allows COLs of 3.28", 3.38", 3.48" and 3.58".
The SAAMI .458 Lott with 3.58" COL cannot compete with the .458 WinMag at same COL.
But, you'll do OK.
Just be careful not to load the SAAMI .458 Lott to same max load as the .458 WinMag.
That might damage the .458 Lott,
unless you run that SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into it first.

Speaking of 3.380" COL with a .458 WinMag, capable of 2500 fps with the 404gr Shock Hammer:

Sir Ron,
A quick reply, more after some food. Just back from range.


458 Lott, 404 grain Hammer bullet, 79 grains of RL-10x, 3 shots
2596, 2596, 2593 fps

I have to pull the card for the others. But the was definitely the least extreme spread.

Also very good results with MR-2000 and 20″ 416 Ruger. It was 2500 plus.

WARNING : this Lott load is Not pressure tested. Seems okay in my rifle. More to be done with this and the Lott.

R10 really gets those Hammers moving!

Sir Larry,
I told you that you would do OK, didn't I ?
Well, that would be just over 2600 fps MV with great st.dev., since extreme spread is only 3 fps for 3 shots.
If the .458 Lott will do that at 3.58" COL with the 404gr Shock Hammer,
the .458 WM+ will do more, I am sure.
Good to know some great load data like that.
What brass case and primer were you using, please ?

Sir Ron,
Hornady Brass, new Unfired. Federal 215.

Here is some more on Lott, and 416 & 375 Rugers:

More on the 458 Lott, 404 grain Hammer bullet & RL-10x:
Additional loads of 416 & 375 Rugers.

Several shots did not register. I believe I registered several from an adjacent shooter.
Here is what I believe was legitimate for the 458 Lott, 24″ barrel.

74 grains:
2445, 2454, 2469, 2468

75 grains:
2499

76 grains was a total cull.

77 grains
2546

78 grains was a total cull.

79 grains:
2596, 2596, 2593
———————————
416 Ruger, 20″ barrel: 350 grain TSX
IMR 4320, 73.5 grains

2384
2349
2365
2375

416 Ruger, 20 barrel: 350 grain TTSX
MR-2000, 85 grains

2536
2514
2522

416 Ruger, 20″ barrel: 350 grain TTSX
MR-2000, 86 grains

2565
2561
2549
——————————
375 Ruger, 20″ barrel: 270 grain LRX
H380, 83 grains

2731
2719
2727
2724
2718

Some great results there, Sir Larry!

Now I've a question for Sir Ron: From a longtime correspondent who wanted my opinion on how far he might go in using AA2230 behind a molly-coated 405gr in his Encore Prohunter in .45-90. COL is 3.30" and the chamber allows up to 3.55". So far he's gone to 70 grains without issues. He didn't give MV. I told him I'd ask the expert on the Campfire, as I've no experience with such a bullet.

So if you care to respond, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca (current blog involves Winchester's original series of their first four magnums - beginning, of course, with the father of them all)