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That’s a great thought CZ. I’ve got a Ruger #1 Laminated 45-90 I’d like to warm up one of these days. That might be a good gun to try some 400’s from…


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And I should have mentioned that the Prohunter has a 14" barrel with a muzzle brake.

Bob
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Originally Posted by ldmay375
Sir Ron,
Hornady Brass, new Unfired. Federal 215.

Here is some more on Lott, and 416 & 375 Rugers:

More on the 458 Lott, 404 grain Hammer bullet & RL-10x:
Additional loads of 416 & 375 Rugers.

Several shots did not register. I believe I registered several from an adjacent shooter.
Here is what I believe was legitimate for the 458 Lott, 24″ barrel.

74 grains:
2445, 2454, 2469, 2468

75 grains:
2499

76 grains was a total cull.

77 grains
2546

78 grains was a total cull.

79 grains:
2596, 2596, 2593
———————————
416 Ruger, 20″ barrel: 350 grain TSX
IMR 4320, 73.5 grains

2384
2349
2365
2375

416 Ruger, 20 barrel: 350 grain TTSX
MR-2000, 85 grains

2536
2514
2522

416 Ruger, 20″ barrel: 350 grain TTSX
MR-2000, 86 grains

2565
2561
2549
——————————
375 Ruger, 20″ barrel: 270 grain LRX
H380, 83 grains

2731
2719
2727
2724
2718


Sir Larry, 2600 FPS with the 404 grain Hammer is excellent and it will Hamer game

Last edited by jwp475; 06/11/22.


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Sir John,
My ultimate ideal goal is to have a consistent/accurate load of at least 2450 fps from a 22" barrel. If this MRC hangs around, the barrel will be cut to 22".
2450 fps will give the point and shoot trajectory and sufficient velocity for my "long-range" of 230 yds.
No doubt the near 2600 fps would knock the lateral crap out most anything with this 404 Hammer.
Sir Ron created a heck of a booster shot for the 458's with this bullet. One that really works.

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Originally Posted by CZ550
Some great results there, Sir Larry!

Now I've a question for Sir Ron: From a longtime correspondent who wanted my opinion on how far he might go in using AA2230 behind a molly-coated 405gr in his Encore Prohunter in .45-90. COL is 3.30" and the chamber allows up to 3.55". So far he's gone to 70 grains without issues. He didn't give MV. I told him I'd ask the expert on the Campfire, as I've no experience with such a bullet.

So if you care to respond, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca (current blog involves Winchester's original series of their first four magnums - beginning, of course, with the father of them all)

Sir Bob,
Looking forward to that latest blog.
Regarding the .45-90 TC Encore with 14" barrel and a muzzle brake,
if he is doing well with 70 grains of AA-2230 at 3.30" COL,
and could actually seat it out another 0.25" with that unspecified 405-gr with moly coating,
he must have a bit of throat, more than usual on a .45-90 ?

That is a 2.4" case length and he would be hanging 1.15" of bullet length in front of the case mouth.
That does not make sense with the usual cup & core 405-grainer being only about 1 inch long.
I would tend to tell him to not go any higher in charge.
Leave well enough alone.

Like you, I would want to know more specifics on the bullet and what velocity he is getting.
Moly won't do much.
Maybe his break-open action will handle about 50,000 psi with the .45-90, and he might be there with his 70 grains.
Is his brass good stuff like Starline ?
We are just whistling past the unknowns here.


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Sir Larry,
Thanks again for providing load data for the .458 Lott with RL-10X and the 404gr Shock Hammer.
I cannot do all powders myself, but I can easily extrapolate SAAMI .458 Lott hot loads to .458 WM+ starting loads.

Remember that something as mundane as a compressed H4895 MAX load in the .458 Lott (from the Woodleigh manual)
can be turned into a lower pressure and faster velocity load with the same bullet in a .458 WM+.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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I am really starting to like the 24" barrel length.
23" is as short as I want to go.
25" is as long as I want to go.
I am no midget or giant. 24" is just right, like Goldilocks prefers.
My ancestors poked around with 44"-long barrels and lived to procreate despite Darwin.

I am also happy with any SAAMI .458 WM, as long as I can use it as both a single-shot .458 WM+
and as a magazine repeater with shorter COL.
Non-stretched M98, M70, or M77 are fantastical in this regard.
M70 Long Action, Magnum Mauser, or Ruger No. 1 all go bang for me too.
What is not to like about the .458 Winchester Magnum,
except for .458 Lott lovers needing to justify their pet ?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

For Lex:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Thanks, Sir Ron,

Your thoughts echo some of my own. I mentioned to him that the TC Encore should handle up to about 50,000 psi. Your suggestion that 70 grains of 2230 should be a limit, reinforces my thinking. Thanks.

On Friday past, I also fired about 20 handloads from my son's Traditions .44 mag. He registered results as I fired. That went well. Then, I also fired a few 225gr AccuBonds from my Traditions G3 in .35 Whelen. It's the load I've settled on for "come what may". Three into .67" at 100 yards from a corrected to MV of exactly 2850 fps. Formula: Rem brass, WLRM primers, 69 grains of CFE 223 at 3.45" COL.

And many "donkeys" for all you've done and still do: There's great stuff in those recent posts.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


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Sir Ron,
As that song goes, I ain't asking for much.
Standard length, stainless 458 Winchester, 22" barrel, 404 Hammer, and 2400 fps. That velocity could be 2350 fps and personal satisfaction could be achieved without sedatives being administered.

I think my near ideal .458 rifle idea is a stainless Ruger Mark II / Hawkeye re-barrel to 458 Winchester, with Ruger's 416 Ruger Alaskan barrel contour, 22".

Last edited by ldmay375; 06/12/22.
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Sir Bob's blog latest has a passage to make the deniers/liars weep:

"In my view, Winchester did a great job in producing that series of four in the late ’50s and early ’60s, that have really never been improved on by their “Short Magnums”, nor other brands and iterations. The .458 is still a factory standard for African DG firing a 500gr at 2130 to 2150 fps (over 5000 ft-lbs), and handloads that equal or surpass the Lott (to 6000 ft-lbs); the 300 is a world class cartridge for big game at any realistic range as well as a favorite for target shooting. The .338 is still a serious choice in Alaska for its overgrown moose and bears, and the .264, despite a lot of negative press and more than enough competition, is still alive and capable of “getting the job done” on anything to meet Winchester’s intentions – at stretched ranges.

"Long may they live! ...

"And despite its critics, the father of them all – the .458 is not only able to fulfil its promises, but is better than ever!"


Amen !
So said this choir receiving that message.

All of those Fabulous Four chamberings have leade-only throats with no parallel-sided freebore.
The three smaller bores have more obtuse leade angles, but the diameter at the start of the leade is pretty much proportional to caliber in all.
The chamber length of the .458 WM is 0.020" longer than brass maximum,
but all three of the others (.338, .264, and .300 WinMag) have 0.024" for max brass length to stretch into on firing.
Maybe that is because SAAMI limits the .458 WM to only 60,000 psi MAP
while the other three get to go to 64,000 psi MAP, even greater than the .458 Lott MAP of 62,500 psi !

That tells me that the .458 WM+ ought to be allowed MAP of 64,000 psi and really leave the .458 Lott behind, eating dust.


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Sir Scotty,
If you have a Ruger No. 1 .45-90-2.4",
just give it a SAAMI .458 WM throat and go to town with Starline brass in that strong rifle.
Sir Bob equaled or exceeded SAAMI .458 WM loads with his .45-70-2.1" Long Throat Ruger No. 1.
The .45-70 Elko Magnum of the 1990s, CIP homologated, is actually a .45-100-2.6" case with a .458 WM throat.
I figure they meant 70 grains of smokeless instead of 70 grains of BP in calling it a .45-70,
since they did call it a "Magnum" .45-70, after all.


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Originally Posted by ldmay375
Sir Ron,
As that song goes, I ain't asking for much.
Standard length, stainless 458 Winchester, 22" barrel, 404 Hammer, and 2400 fps. That velocity could be 2350 fps and personal satisfaction could be achieved without sedatives being administered.

I think my near ideal .458 rifle idea is a stainless Ruger Mark II / Hawkeye re-barrel to 458 Winchester, with Ruger's 416 Ruger Alaskan barrel contour, 22".

Sir Larry,
2400 fps with the 404gr Shock Hammer from a 22" barrel is no problemo, from either +3.340" box or +3.600" box.
The Ruger mag boxes are a little over 3.400" inside length, about 3.42" IIRC.
That stainless Ruger M77 Mk II/Hawkeye, 22"-barreled .458 WM will weigh 7 pounds or less in a Canoe Paddle stock.
That is where you might want to download to 2350 fps with the 404gr.
About like Buffalo Bore factory loads with 400-gr TSX.
Tim Sundle claims about 2250 fps with his Buffalo Bore load from a custom 18" barrel,
and same with a 22" factory barrel ... it happens, as Forrest Gump would say.

Anywho, Sir Jerry has paved the way.
+2300 fps with a 500-gr Nosler at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel.
Your 22" barrel can easily do +2200 fps with a 500-grainer and shortCOL.
Sir Jerry gets about 2350 fps with the 500-gr TBSS .458 WM+ at less than 3.600" COL, 24" barrel.

He has also verified 3.480" COL with the 404gr Shock Hammer to be accurate and functional at 2500 fps.
You don't have to believe just me on that.

I can also do +2350 fps with a 450-gr CEB brass FN solid at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel.
Shorten that barrel to 22" and +2300 fps is still easy.
450-gr/.458 FN solids at 2300 fps are proven elephant killers.

Any .458 WM rifle, standard box or long, is capable of doing it all.
That is why I am going with an FN Mauser for my 1:10" twist experiments.
Saving the .375 H&H/Wby M70 Classic Stainless for a JES rebore at 1:14" twist, like Sir Jerry got.


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1856 to 1956 was the century required for the .458 WinMag to be perfected.
It has only gotten better with age, from new powders and bullets.
Oliver F. Winchester was in on the ground floor, hiring and financing from 1856 onward in his lifetime.
.22 Rimfire short by S&W in 1858.
.44 Henry Rimfire in 1860, by New Haven Arms Co.
.44-40 Winchester Centerfire in 1873, by Winchester Repeating Arms Co., won the west.
.458 Winchester Magnum in 1956, by WRAC also, won the world.

1860 to 1873:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Thanks Sir Oliver !


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Scotty,
If you have a Ruger No. 1 .45-90-2.4",
just give it a SAAMI .458 WM throat and go to town with Starline brass in that strong rifle.
Sir Bob equaled or exceeded SAAMI .458 WM loads with his .45-70-2.1" Long Throat Ruger No. 1.
The .45-70 Elko Magnum of the 1990s, CIP homologated, is actually a .45-100-2.6" case with a .458 WM throat.
I figure they meant 70 grains of smokeless instead of 70 grains of BP in calling it a .45-70,
since they did call it a "Magnum" .45-70, after all.

Great G2 RC. I haven't jumped into the fire yet with that boomer due to a few other things going on but I will keep your PM box fired up once I get to it. It's a dandy of a rifle, as is my 458. Those big 45's are alot of fun. I didn't actually think I'd like to shoot them as much as I do. You all running every combo known to man is hard to watch, cause I wanna try them all!


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by ldmay375
Sir Ron,
As that song goes, I ain't asking for much.
Standard length, stainless 458 Winchester, 22" barrel, 404 Hammer, and 2400 fps. That velocity could be 2350 fps and personal satisfaction could be achieved without sedatives being administered.


I think my near ideal .458 rifle idea is a stainless Ruger Mark II / Hawkeye re-barrel to 458 Winchester, with Ruger's 416 Ruger Alaskan barrel contour, 22".

Sir Larry,
2400 fps with the 404gr Shock Hammer from a 22" barrel is no problemo, from either +3.340" box or +3.600" box.
The Ruger mag boxes are a little over 3.400" inside length, about 3.42" IIRC.
That stainless Ruger M77 Mk II/Hawkeye, 22"-barreled .458 WM will weigh 7 pounds or less in a Canoe Paddle stock.
That is where you might want to download to 2350 fps with the 404gr.
About like Buffalo Bore factory loads with 400-gr TSX.
Tim Sundle claims about 2250 fps with his Buffalo Bore load from a custom 18" barrel,
and same with a 22" factory barrel ... it happens, as Forrest Gump would say.

Anywho, Sir Jerry has paved the way.
+2300 fps with a 500-gr Nosler at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel.
Your 22" barrel can easily do +2200 fps with a 500-grainer and shortCOL.
Sir Jerry gets about 2350 fps with the 500-gr TBSS .458 WM+ at less than 3.600" COL, 24" barrel.

He has also verified 3.480" COL with the 404gr Shock Hammer to be accurate and functional at 2500 fps.
You don't have to believe just me on that.

I can also do +2350 fps with a 450-gr CEB brass FN solid at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel.
Shorten that barrel to 22" and +2300 fps is still easy.
450-gr/.458 FN solids at 2300 fps are proven elephant killers.

Any .458 WM rifle, standard box or long, is capable of doing it all.
That is why I am going with an FN Mauser for my 1:10" twist experiments.
Saving the .375 H&H/Wby M70 Classic Stainless for a JES rebore at 1:14" twist, like Sir Jerry got.


Sir Ron,
Pretty much my usual COAL in various Rugers has been 3.350". I have the donor rifle a Ruger Mark II stainless currently in 300 Winchester. It was a former boat-paddle. But, has a new B&C stock with the aluminum bedding block.

I don't recall the present weight. I am guessing, depending on what scope with rings, and sights go on it, that will add close 1.5 pounds. A similar set up in 300 Winchester with a 2.5-10x50 scope weighs 9# 4.9 ounces.

This MRC stainless 24" 458 Lott weighs 9# 9.5 ounces with scope and 1.4 ounces of lens covers. CZ 458 Lott, 22" barrel with same scope and lens covers is 9# 11.6 ounces.

I think, I will end up around 9-9.5 pounds. My 20" 416 Ruger in a McMillan weighs about 9# 10 ounces, with a 20 ounce scope.
The somewhat surprise, some B&C with aluminum bedding block weigh slightly less than McMillians with molded in colors and mag-fill in the action/recoil area.

Last edited by ldmay375; 06/13/22.
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Sir Larry 2596, 2593, 2596 is exceptional consistency. Outstanding IMHO and very powerful



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Ah ha, so that is LabRadar MV. Needs no 5-yard correction to MV.

Sorry, Sir Larry, you did not break 2600 fps MV with your .458 Lott. The .458 WinMag+ did it with a starting load, haha.
No need for such speed. Lesser speed do kill.
Your .458 WinMag build recipes are much more interesting than circumcising your .458 Lott to 22".
Just my take.
To each his own madness makes the world go round, haha.

I am interested in squib loads for the .458 WM, something to imitate function like its ancestors: .22 Short Rimfire and .44 WCF.
For starting reference, the .44 WCF Cowboy Load with Trail Boss:

[Linked Image]

And a good load test snagged from an internet video, factory smokeless of recent make .44 WCF,
still going after 149 years , just like the .45-70 G and the .45 LC:

[Linked Image]

Trail Boss loads for the .458 WinMag:

[Linked Image]

A barely subsonic 400-gr Lee Hollow Base FN of 20:1 alloy, PC-painted, might turn the .458 WM into a real rabbit rifle !
There may yet be a good use for the soft 400-gr Speers, subsonic and suppressed, for small game.

Reminds me how the US government screwed up a trial of the .458 1.3" belted with 500gr FMJ bullets at 1100 fps,
for sentry elimination at 100 yards, in Vietnam.
What a Rube Goldberg contraption they created !
14 pounds and long barrel, they built a couple and scrapped the project with no bona fide field use.
Silencer looked like a watercooled machinegun barrel shroud from WW1.
Could have been done with a short-barreled, faster twist .458 WM 2.5" and a standard silencer.
Could have been shorter overall length, and 4 pounds lighter.
Might have been practical then.


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Still no progress on a 400-gr FN copper solid from Hammer.
Hammer does make a couple of other interesting bullets:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I might settle for the .427 Claw Hammer enlarged to .458-caliber and stretched to 400-grains with a flat base.
That .355 Jack Hammer would make a good defensive load in Phil Shoemaker's pocket pistol for brown bear discouragement.
Maybe the meplat could be filled in for an FN and likewise enlarged to .458-400gr Flat Base Flat Head.
Call it the Flat Jack Hammer.
Haha.


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Sir Larry, you're gassing her up pretty well, if accuracy is there that'd be a great load at 2600 fps, nice work.

Sir Ron, us using the burn rates of 2230/2460 powders work mighty well with 450 TSX/Woodleigh etc and the 500 grainers, if you/we really want to push the 404 Hammers to max speed in the 458 WM+ mho is to use AA-2015, it's a hell of a great powder and will boost the lighter bullet faster and at safe pressures over the slower burning 2230/2460 powders.


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Sir Jerry,
Great idea.
AA-2015BR is sometimes listed with the "Bench Rest" designation for its consistency and ignition characteristics.
It is a single-base, extruded powder, burns faster but requires less powder weight
to get higher velocity AND pressure than the AA-2230 or AA-2460s, both double-base spherical/ball powders.
Interestingly AA-2460s has that "s" listed sometimes too, which I SWAG is to emphasize that it is the un-flattened, fully spherical form of AA-2230.
AA-2230 is the one with about half of its granules "pre-compressed."

76 grains of 2015 probably gets slightly compressed like the max loads for 2230 and 2460 with 400-gr bullet and 3.140" COL
as shown in the table below.
2015 gives the highest MV and the highest (submaximal) pressure in the modest data below for 400-gr Barnes "Old Original" SSSP:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

AA-2015BR should be a good one.
Only drawback might be temperature sensitivity. I don't know about that being any problem for most situations.

Burn Rate charts below suggest other good neighbor powders: Anything good in the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO.
Alliant Power Pro 1200-R would probably be a humdinger with the 404gr Shock Hammer.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Sheesh, I wish I could do them all !
Just goes to show what a great cartridge the .458 WM is with so many good powders.


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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
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