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Sir Jerry, it will be a few weeks before I have the opportunity to shoot the rifle for groups at least 100.
I am hopeful, this MRC does seem to want to shoot well.

I have also thought that 2215 might be a good choice for the Winchester. But, I was dang lucky to snag the 2230 & 2460 that I have. It was the Only that I have seen in months.

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Aa2015 is my preferred powder behind the 485 grain cast loads. Worked great in the 35 Whelen 225 Barnes x loads as well.

Last edited by Fury01; 06/14/22.
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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Jerry,
Great idea.
AA-2015BR is sometimes listed with the "Bench Rest" designation for its consistency and ignition characteristics.
It is a single-base, extruded powder, burns faster but requires less powder weight
to get higher velocity AND pressure than the AA-2230 or AA-2460s, both double-base spherical/ball powders.
Interestingly AA-2460s has that "s" listed sometimes too, which I SWAG is to emphasize that it is the un-flattened, fully spherical form of AA-2230.
AA-2230 is the one with about half of its granules "pre-compressed."

76 grains of 2015 probably gets slightly compressed like the max loads for 2230 and 2460 with 400-gr bullet and 3.140" COL
as shown in the table below.
2015 gives the highest MV and the highest (submaximal) pressure in the modest data below for 400-gr Barnes "Old Original" SSSP:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

AA-2015BR should be a good one.
Only drawback might be temperature sensitivity. I don't know about that being any problem for most situations.

Burn Rate charts below suggest other good neighbor powders: Anything good in the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO.
Alliant Power Pro 1200-R would probably be a humdinger with the 404gr Shock Hammer.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Sheesh, I wish I could do them all !
Just goes to show what a great cartridge the .458 WM is with so many good powders.


Good stuff Sir Ron, i think the reason for more pressure with the old Barnes is because of it's pure copper jacket, akin to the Swift A Frames and pressure, mighty sticky/grabby alloy, massive bearing surface notwithstanding, the Hammers with their radiused/smooth grooves and harder less sticky alloy build much less pressure, example, the little 9mm bullet you showed, AA#7 is a world star powder in the 9MM with 135-147gr bullets, the little 137 Hammer will fly to max velocity at except able pressures with AA#5, same/same with 2015 vs 2230/2460 with the 404 Hammers, i bet it'd be a load for the ages.


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Sir Larry, you bet, will be interesting to see what the targets say, in truth, anything between 2400-2600+ fps and beyond is going to be a hell of a load for anything, as Sir Ron said, we just dont have the time for it all, but damn we're having a blast with what we can get lit ; ]

F01, you bet Sir, i remember 2015 powder in a Rem classic 35 Whelen i bought new around 1995, i also remember the price delivered, 358 bucks, same as bore diameter LOL, i pushed 225gr partitions at exactly 2750 fps, it was a hell of a load that no one at the range could believe, first for accuracy then the velocity, no one that i knew of was doing that with the Whelen and 225 bullets in those days, particularly with 22 inches of barrel, it was a great rifle.

BTW, those 220gr solids you gave me will magnetize, Maw Hornady put steel in those boogers back in the day ; ]


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Sir Jerry,

Agree on the grabby/sticky "lubricity" (or lack of it) with the soft copper-jackets
compounding the barrel friction with their full-bearing shanks.
Swift A-Frames do that too.
The Hammer PDR bands and GSC HV drive bands do seem to give higher velocity at lower pressures by my SWAG-ometer readings.
Ditto the slick, bronze/brass banded Federal TBSS with lead core,
and the banded brass bullets from CEB and the defunct Barnes Banded Solids.
Extra bullet length allows getting pressures and velocities up by increased seating depth with lesser powder charge.
One can make a 3.34" COL almost equal a 3.60" COL, but not quite.
More powder and more recoil with the faster 3.6" COL.
Hell's bells, a maximum load in a .458 WM+ is going to out-do a maximum load in a SAAMI .458 Lott in many ways.

On a different subject:
Alas, my .375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless from New Haven was rechambered to .375 WBY long ago.
A .458 re-bore by JES and rechamber won't clean up the chamber.
Less case-body taper in the .375 WBY than in the .458 WinMag is the culprit.
At 2.520" from breech face, the .458 WinMag chamber ends at 0.483" reamer max diameter, where the case mouth chamfer starts.
At 2.407" from breech face , the .375 WBY reamer diameter is 0.496" max diameter, where the WBY shoulder starts "venturifying."
That would make for a bulged and ringed .458 WinMag chamber if not set back.
Looks like a new 1:14"-twist barrel is needed, for a switch-barrel .458 WM+/.375 WBY on the M70.

First comes the fast-twist M98 .458 WinMag with 24"-long, Pac-Nor No. 5 sporter contour, 1:10" twist.
Heaviest bullets subsonic and suppressed for head shots on any varmint at 100 yards.
No shortening of case to 1.3" with 2-foot-long, fat suppressor shroud around the barrel of a 14-pound rifle is needed.
Just sayin'.
AA-2230 was developed for the 223, haha.


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It was 60 grains of AA2015 that gave over 2000 fps from a 500gr Hornady in my Ruger #1 in .45-70 (before the second #1 Ruger got the long throat). The specifics were sent to Accurate and they got nearly 2100 fps from 63,200 psi in a 24" test barrel with the bullet seated to 2.83" instead of the 2.93" of my load. (Their barrel had a shorter throat). Bill Falen Jr. phoned me later with the results and asked about the recoil - there were no concerns over the psi, as mine would have been a bit less, and due to the very strong action of the #1 Ruger. He was obviously impressed and had never seen those results previously. AA2015 was my favorite powder for a long time in .45-70s. It's ironic, I suppose, but the MV from that 500gr Hornady from my first #1 Ruger with a 22" barrel was 2015 fps from AA2015.

Like others here, 2015 became my favorite for my first .35 Whelen. I was getting ~2600 from 250s in the Rem M7400. Later, I went to RL-15.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

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I have a couple of pounds of AA-2015BR.
I better try it with the 404gr Hammer.
Looking for a +2600 fps load of
less powder weight than 87 grains of
compressed H4895.
The reduced recoil will help with shooting long strings
at benchrest matches.
The .458 WM+ may be the next 6mm PPC.

Speaking of reduced recoil,
I have never used Trail Boss.
Stay tuned for subsonic 300 to 500 grainers.
Could make the .22 rimfire obsolete.


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[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The data above and below suggests maybe Alliant Power Pro 1200-R was the powder in the Federal 500-gr Fusion load.

[Linked Image]

1200-R is a faster powder than Alliant Power Pro Varmint, but a greater charge (compressed) of the Varmint gave higher velocity than with the 1200-R.
For charges in a factory load, the non-compressed, lesser charge of the faster powder would likely be preferred, for ease of machine loading.

Might be a similar thing going on with AA-2015BR being slightly slower than AA-2200, but giving higher velocity with a greater charge.
However, for the handloader, the larger charge of the AA-2015BR would be preferred,
since it beats all other "AA" powders for MV with a 400-grainer in the .458 WinMag ShortCOL.
Increasing the COL would allow even more powder with less or no compression.
Sounds like a job for the .458 WM+,
even though the SAAMI "governed" load will do just fine.

Old factory load data review with highlighted advertised MV for 6 loads,
all are 5-shot averages in same rifle, same day, 46 degrees F: 24" M70 Super Grade .458 WM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

All these factory loads will make bloody big holes in dangerous game,
much to the chagrin of the deniers of the .458 WinMag.
The Lottite proganda has failed, big time.


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You'll get that 404 humming with AA-2015 Sir Ron, i'm quiet happy at 2500 fps with 2460, that load is so low pressured it wont matter if i'm tracking buffalo in 110 degree weather, i'm ready to go now, just finishing up paperwork for rifle registration.


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Tony,

That is hilarious. I am starting on a barn in my backyard soon as I finish The Queen's sunroom.

Our hero, Sir Jerry, requested I mark the FN of a Hornady DGS 480-grainer for a "classified mission" in Africa.
I did so, as well as the base of a DGX-Bonded 480-grainer, using my Chinese-made, AA-battery-powered "Scratch-It Pro" engraving pen:

[Linked Image]

Above you see the two bullets resting atop Sir Jerry's H&H Royal 500/450 NE.
We will have to wait for his safari to find out what this is all about.
He will be using his .458 WM+ and the 404gr Shock Hammer for all manner of game,
backed up by 500-gr TBSS in case the need for a southward aimed Portuguese Heart Shot arises on southbound bovine.

I presume the nostalgic double rifle will be used ceremoniously to celebrate the .450 NE ballistics that changed everything.
H&H got tired of having to use John Rigby's .450 Rigby Special cartridge in their rifles for adoring sportsmen, after the 1898 frenzy.
They even had to re-throat some of their later .450 BPE Farquharson rifles that could handle the new Cordite and new brass, when sportsman clamored for it.
They called it "coning up the breech."
This allowed the stronger, heavier-barreled single-shot rifles to transition from .450 BPE to .450 NE ammunition.
Shades of the .458 Winchester Magnum throat to come.

So H&H came up with something "bigger and better" the 500/450 "H&H Special/Smokeless" delivering same ballistics at lesser pressure.
Now they had a great excuse not to further John Rigby's domination.
Then came the British ban of .450 bores in rebellious areas of India and Africa, circa 1905, and the Nitro Express Renaming Race was on.
Many more duplications of .450 NE ballistics in double rifles followed.
Shades of the .458 Winchester Magnum domination, denial, and resurrection to come.

Sir Jerry's mission is beyond Top Secret.
Cosmic Squirrel level clearance is required for details.
We will just have to wait for it ...


TTT for 6MMWASP, he wanted to see a pic of the old Holland Royal.


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Thanks for posting. Exquisite rifle. WOW

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Sir Jerry,

Hope the heat has not been too hard on your cattle.
I saw the beef cattle were dropping by the thousands in Kansas.
Sam's Club New York Strip was already almost $15 per pound. Let's go Brandon !

I am getting the AA-2015BR loads ready with the 404gr Shock Hammer.
Been too hot lately. Sub-90*F range time desired for the initial experimentation.
Sub-100*F heat index desired too,
for a day that does not make me sweat like a Democrat trying to say something true.

Reading further in Giles & Shuey revealed the list of bullet weights Winchester used in the .45-70:
130, 140, 200, 230, 235, 240, 330, 350, 405 and 500 grains.
That would include all types of smokeless and BP loads and lead and jacketed bullets.
140-grainer was a roundball of pure lead, 130-gr was a .45 Schofield revolver bullet of 16:1.
I have some .457" Hornady roundball that weigh about 144 grains.
Will try 20-ish grains of Trail Boss and similar amount of AA-5744.
To keep it simple, no fillers, wads or gas seals,
but I will powder-coat-paint-patch the balls to make them a little fatter.
Should be fun.

Funny that Winchester had to play catchup on the .45-70, what with the Marlin Model 1881
arriving before the Winchester Model 1886.
Winchester ammo boxes did not even call out for the "Model 1886" until 1894.
"Prior to this, the '45-70 Marlin' loading was specified in the catalogs for M86s chambered in .45-70."
So said Giles & Shuey.

Duplicating .45-70 ballistics with the .458 WinMag is fun.
Whether aged 149 years or 66 years, they are both cartridges of enormous endurance and utility.
Birds of a feather.

Sharps released the .45-2.6" about November 1876,
and dropped it for the .45-2.4" about June 1877, loaded with same powder charge and bullet as the longer case.
History is replete with many similar examples,
and history keeps repeating itself.
The .458-2.8" case has been dropped in favor of the .458-2.5" case.


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Winchester manufactured ARMORY PRACTICE loads meant for .45-70 Trapdoor rifles, using BP and soft lead.
Two are shown in Giles & Shuey:

First listed in 1892 ... 5 gr. of BP and 140-gr round ball of pure lead ... sort of like a .45-05-140-2.1" Sharps, haha.

Then in 1897 Winchester made one they actually called a ".45-20 Solid Head Centerfire Cartridge ... U.S. Government Standard for Armory Practice."
It used the 130-gr 45 Schofield revolver bullet (16:1, lead:tin) atop 20 grains of BP.

Accuracy probably was not so important for parlor loads used at close range, and for "live fire" drills.

The 66-y.o. youngster has some catching up to do on the 149-y.o. regarding the light-weight "practice" bullets.
Paper-patching of .45-cal handgun bullets might allow checking off a few more weights in the .458 WinMag.


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Good reason for hunting Kodiak deer with a .458 WinMag:
(from Newsweek web site today)

"Dying Bear Kills Russian Hunter That Shot It by Crushing His Skull"
Robyn White - 7h ago


The 62-year-old hunter had attempted to kill the bear from a platform in the Tulun district of the Irkutsk region of Russia, shortly before the animal turned on him, Russian news agency Interfax reported.

As the hunter came down from the platform, the bear crushed the unnamed man's skull, and began clawing at him.

Having been declared missing, the hunter's bloodied corpse was found after a search party patrolled the forest.

He was discovered with claw and fang wounds. The bear's carcass was found about 54 yards away from the man.

"The mortally wounded predator managed to inflict an injury from which the hunter died," the regional office of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs told Interfax.

There are an estimated 13,000 wild bears in the Irkutsk region.

Between 1991–2017, there were 264 recorded bear attacks in Russia. Most of these occurred on the Pacific Coast and in Siberia, where bear populations are higher.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...mp;cvid=5b41b2f7769646cc8cf49a0f6ab5d224


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The .458 WinMag throat works wonders. Physics does not lie.
Those who don’t believe it end up confused, or just get angrily defiant of the truth.
Sort of like Joe Biden.


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
The .458 WinMag throat works wonders. Physics does not lie.
Those who don’t believe it end up confused, or just get angrily defiant of the truth.
Sort of like Joe Biden.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I AGREE!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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Interesting that no mention was made of just what weapon was used to try to kill the bear. ? spear, archery, pistol, rifle ???
Or why the hunter came down from the platform where the bear could get to him.
???

Agreed that the .458 win mag could handle the bear.


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Sir Tony,
Buy a donkey for that amen.
The thread is still very much alive, despite summer interferences of several types.
I have not shot a .458 WinMag for too long now, getting blue balls here.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Will use a 7.25-pound M70 Classic .458 WM+ (Marcella Winchester-McGowen) for the squib loads,
looking for 1100 fps accuracy loads with the PC-painted lead.
Same velocity with the Sierra 300-grainer and Speer 400-grainer might be useful for jacketed squib loads,
so as not to over-expand/disintegrate those bullets either. Rook & Rabbit bullets.

The roundball, Hornady .457"/144-grainer swaged lead, has grown to .460"/145-grainer as a blue ball, after 2 coats of
Eastwood Ford Light Blue.
The LEE ".459-405-HB" is a 375-grainer in Linotype, will be sized to 0.461", shown un-sized above.

The 404-gr Shock Hammer is loaded with AA-2015BR.
So as not to mix the barrel fouling, and so as to ease the recoil,
the Hammers will be fired in a CZ 550 Magnum, Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ.
This will allow comparison to a previous select load with AA-2230 in the same rifle:
81.0 grains of AA-2230 in 25" Shilen barrel, W-W brass, F-215 primer, COL 3.480", 39*F: MV = 2517 fps and accurate.
I SWAG that the AA-2015BR will produce higher velocity, just as Sir Jerry predicted.
A higher ambient temperature will not be a hindrance of this.

Sir Jerry has a great load with AA-2460s for Tropical safari use, about 2500 fps in his 24" stainless JES re-bore barrel.
83.0 grains AA-2460s, same COL, brass, primer,
2483 fps MV at 55*F, IIRC.


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Originally Posted by crshelton
Interesting that no mention was made of just what weapon was used to try to kill the bear. ? spear, archery, pistol, rifle ???
Or why the hunter came down from the platform where the bear could get to him.
???

Agreed that the .458 win mag could handle the bear.

Sir Charles,
Such details are not to be expected in a Lame Stream Media article.
Maybe more details will show up elsewhere, but it it was not a proud moment for the Russian Darwin Award winner.

[Linked Image]

I always think of the "I could've had a V-8" vegetable juice ads when I see this detail from a David Wright painting ...

[Linked Image]

... and I imagine James Watts saying "I should've had a 4-5-8"
as he is searching the stream for the holstered .45 Long Colt that the bear clawed off his waist
as it barreled over him with a single .375 H&H bullet hole through it.
Good thing the bear kept going and died on the other side of the creek. Black Rapids Creek.


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RIP,

It has been a long time since I have conversed on the greatness of the 458, having been a former C/D league participant in the discussion on the forum which shall not be named. It is good to see the mission is still in full force and am glad that I was able to find this forum.

I offer the following information. My family ended up on a safari in June that was planned and executed in a time frame of fewer than 3 months. Since I had little time to prep and no time to develop any new loads, I decided that I would participate with a 458 win mag Ruger No. 1 (2-7 Leupold) that had not been blooded in 27+ years of ownership with a load (below) that shoots well in it. Additionally, I would bring a double in 450 nitro express. For me, this was a 458 safari.

The 458 load was a 350 gr TSX, 77.2 gr of H4895, 3.44 oal. This achieves an average velocity of 2553 fps out of the 24” Ruger barrel (measured at 10 ft with no adjustment). Pedestrian compared to the 458 wm+, but effective nonetheless, out to 200yds on this trip. Photos here show a cape kudu and the entry-exit on a 110 meter shot.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

A number of other animals were taken however none of these bullets were recovered.

As an aside, this particular load provides around 1970 fps out of a 458 win mag 15" encore pistol barrel.

The double 450, with Hornady 480gr DGXs, was used on a springbok at 100+ meters with the expected results. Furthermore, I was able to participate in culling some old cape buffalo cows from a friend's property and you will see below the DGX bullet after it had passed through one cow and through the spine of another. You will note that the petals were sheared from the shank and we were unable to locate them.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

JRN

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