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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,821 |
A drug company would pay billions for that kind of placebo effect.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,512
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,512 |
Pardon a 264 Kreed with a .697 G1 BC at 2700fps,...... Who wants to save me 15 minutes of googling, What bullet is that^^^^^^^^^^^
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Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 579
Campfire Regular
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Joined: Nov 2021
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Physics matters. Whether one likes it, or not. Nice graphs. Indeed. The contrast only gets more stark as the distance increases. 500 meters: ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52168604913_62d0e7ab88_o.png) ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52168604928_2d96f4d20d_o.png) ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52168842029_95072c0bc0_o.png) And that doesn't even account for your shoulder's well-being.
Igitur quī dēsīderat pācem, præparet bellum
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,616
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,616 |
After listening to Stick rant about the 180 ELDM, I built a 280 AI, using Lapua brass, throated for the 180g ELDM, IMR 7828, FEd 210....Shocked is an understatement on 400 and 550 yard targets. Deer and Hogs collapse on the spot...
A Real World lesson BC...Something you just have to see to believe! The load is worth building a rifle around, and small groups abound, near and far!
Thanks Stick! Got a 6.5 CM and two 280AI in the safe right now. Mag length and twist limit my 280AI's to 160's. Good to hear your favorable experience with the 180ELDM, and after looking at Jordan's 500M comparison charts, I may need to build another 280AI throated and twisted for 180's.
FÜCK Jeff_O!
MAGA
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,164
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
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There has never been any doubt that high BC bullets will buck the wind better. In fact many have embraced them as a panacea; as a substitute for learning to read wind and mirage. I don't disagree with the concept in many respects but, on the target range, you still have to read the wind and in the hunting field, you still have to know when to pass on a shot; unless you want to impress your friends with a clean gut shot.
Hey Dip Stick,
I could send you a picture of bullets I have but I shoot mine, rather than taking pictures of them. I'm going to walk back to the 100m range for some rimfire practice now. You can take some more pictures while I'm shooting. Maybe some of those nice steelhead pics. GD
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,475
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,475 |
There has never been any doubt that high BC bullets will buck the wind better. In fact many have embraced them as a panacea; as a substitute for learning to read wind and mirage. I don't disagree with the concept in many respects but, on the target range, you still have to read the wind and in the hunting field, you still have to know when to pass on a shot; unless you want to impress your friends with a clean gut shot.
Hey Dip Stick,
I could send you a picture of bullets I have but I shoot mine, rather than taking pictures of them. I'm going to walk back to the 100m range for some rimfire practice now. You can take some more pictures while I'm shooting. Maybe some of those nice steelhead pics. GD Preferably not as a substitute for, but an addition to.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,244
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,244 |
DumbDog, It's Your Imagination,simply Pretend with it as you MUST...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!? I'm "unfamiliar" with Rimfires. DO "tell". Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING! ![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/924/VYPVln.jpg) Sadly,I've never heard of said fish either. Hint. ![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/924/Har0yl.jpg) Fhuqking LAUGHING!..................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 27,785
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 27,785 |
So the cliff notes version is shoot ball ammo in your .30-06
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,354
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2006
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For comparison. 7mm 180 ELD at 3000 fps: ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52168807459_f968e3f6bd_o.png) I think the “academics” are above the grasp of targeted audience. LOL Excellent info. Thanks for sharing.
Don't speculate when you don't know, and don't second guess when you do.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
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Preferably not as a substitute for, but an addition to. Some belong to that camp for sure but many count heavily on the bullet to out smart the wind for them. Nonetheless, I concede that the better the bullet, the less the mistakes will hurt. GD
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
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Pardon a 264 Kreed with a .697 G1 BC at 2700fps,...... Who wants to save me 15 minutes of googling, What bullet is that^^^^^^^^^^^ The bullet in my simulation: 6.5mm 147 gr ELD-M.
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Joined: Apr 2019
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2019
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DumbDog,
I get it,besides being a CLUELESS Fhuqk you are also Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart,for Lying,Crying and Whining.
Hint.
Fhuqking LAUGHING!................ Jesus, what a piece of schit.
Tarquin
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,244 |
Thekchunt,
Don't be too hard on DumbDog,she does the best she can,just like you. Perhaps you gals can combine "powers",so as to keep things "fair"?!? Hint.
Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 3,018
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2016
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Is this a difficult question to answer?
What is the wind difference, of known BC, at 400 yds.?
Or drop, for that matter?
BC's only real value is Energy down range.
... and the .270 Win., even w/ flat based PSP bullets like the 150 gr. NP, has plenty for most game, even at 400 yards.
BC - is a placebo for marksmanship.
GR You're on the wrong track, here. First, energy down-range is about at the bottom of the list of reasons why high BC helps. Second, missing your target is all about errors and error stack. BC is not a placebo for marksmanship, unless of course you define marksmanship as using the lowest shooting technology possible, but rather high BC aids marksmanship because it reduces uncertainties, and consequently reduces errors (where error here is the difference between your guessed/intended value and the true value). A couple of years ago I built a computational model that helps visualize the errors involved in external ballistics, similar to Litz' WEZ software. It simulates a number of shots taken in identical conditions, but where there is some uncertainty in the value of various parameters. This helps illustrate the benefit to higher BC. In the following 1000-shot simulations the target width is 17.7", and I've assumed a shooter/rifle capable of keeping all shots within 1 MOA from POA, full-value wind speed (including gusts) of 12+/-7 mph, distance of 400+/-1 m, velocity ES of 20 fps, RH of 50%, temp of 46 F, and absolute pressure of 26 HgIn. The only difference between the two is the bullet and the MV. You can see that BC can make a big difference, even at 400 meters, even with the lower-BC bullet having a MV advantage. .277 150 PT at 2950 fps: ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52168693070_8ccd26ddca_o.png) .264 147 ELD at 2700 fps: ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52168209886_e353eddcfa_o.png) And this is my point. Academics. In a 20-knot gust environment? I'm not shooting at game at 400 yards. Why? Because with all your academic high-technology... you don't control the wind. How does your High BC wonder-bullet respond when you took the shot, and it was +/- 20 when you pulled the trigger? A marksman and ethical hunter would know better. ... and get closer. BC - is a placebo for marksmanship. GR You failed to see the point, even when it was displayed in front of your eyes. The simulated wind was 12 +/- 7 mph, not +/- 20 knots. And even in that wind, with the gusts, in this particular example the 6.5 kept all shots within about 12", or approximately the vital zone of a BG animal, while the .270 did not. +/- 20-knots? No, you failed to grasp that your academic snow-globe of artificial constraints was ruined by a little real world probability. Or, does your computer simulator control Mammie Nature as well? Shooting at game animals. BC - is a placebo for marksmanship. GR
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Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 579
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 579 |
Is this a difficult question to answer?
What is the wind difference, of known BC, at 400 yds.?
Or drop, for that matter?
BC's only real value is Energy down range.
... and the .270 Win., even w/ flat based PSP bullets like the 150 gr. NP, has plenty for most game, even at 400 yards.
BC - is a placebo for marksmanship.
GR You're on the wrong track, here. First, energy down-range is about at the bottom of the list of reasons why high BC helps. Second, missing your target is all about errors and error stack. BC is not a placebo for marksmanship, unless of course you define marksmanship as using the lowest shooting technology possible, but rather high BC aids marksmanship because it reduces uncertainties, and consequently reduces errors (where error here is the difference between your guessed/intended value and the true value). A couple of years ago I built a computational model that helps visualize the errors involved in external ballistics, similar to Litz' WEZ software. It simulates a number of shots taken in identical conditions, but where there is some uncertainty in the value of various parameters. This helps illustrate the benefit to higher BC. In the following 1000-shot simulations the target width is 17.7", and I've assumed a shooter/rifle capable of keeping all shots within 1 MOA from POA, full-value wind speed (including gusts) of 12+/-7 mph, distance of 400+/-1 m, velocity ES of 20 fps, RH of 50%, temp of 46 F, and absolute pressure of 26 HgIn. The only difference between the two is the bullet and the MV. You can see that BC can make a big difference, even at 400 meters, even with the lower-BC bullet having a MV advantage. .277 150 PT at 2950 fps: .264 147 ELD at 2700 fps: And this is my point. Academics. In a 20-knot gust environment? I'm not shooting at game at 400 yards. Why? Because with all your academic high-technology... you don't control the wind. How does your High BC wonder-bullet respond when you took the shot, and it was +/- 20 when you pulled the trigger? A marksman and ethical hunter would know better. ... and get closer. BC - is a placebo for marksmanship. GR You failed to see the point, even when it was displayed in front of your eyes. The simulated wind was 12 +/- 7 mph, not +/- 20 knots. And even in that wind, with the gusts, in this particular example the 6.5 kept all shots within about 12", or approximately the vital zone of a BG animal, while the .270 did not. No, you failed to grasp that your academic snow-globe of artificial constraints was ruined by a little real world probability.Or, does your computer simulator control Mammie Nature as well? BC - is a placebo for marksmanship. GR Just out of curiosity,...what would that be? The Prob. that is.
Igitur quī dēsīderat pācem, præparet bellum
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,821
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,821 |
BC - is a placebo for marksmanship.
GR You’re like a broken record; except the record isn’t what you think it is.
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 3,018
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 3,018 |
BC - is a placebo for marksmanship.
GR You’re like a broken record; except the record isn’t what you think it is. Your feelings. Care to expand on them? GR
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,821
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,821 |
BC - is a placebo for marksmanship.
GR You’re like a broken record; except the record isn’t what you think it is. Your feelings. Care to expand on them? GR Lacking. Like your understanding of “placebo.”
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,011
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,011 |
BC - is a placebo for marksmanship.
GR You’re like a broken record; except the record isn’t what you think it is. What he's trying to say is ... since he is incapable of utilizing high bc bullets in a long range hunting scenario then no one else should either gotta love the 'tards with similar lines of bullshyte like "the tooty ot six has killed more animals than blah, fkn blah" "the tooty tooty is all my grandpa & pa ever used, blah" "all you need is a fixed 4x scope, blah blah" "we used iron sights in da arrrrrmy" and other mindless eye roll inducing useless bytes of drivel
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants".
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Joined: Dec 2016
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2016
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BC - is a placebo for marksmanship.
GR You’re like a broken record; except the record isn’t what you think it is. What he's trying to say is ... since he is incapable of utilizing high bc bullets in a long range hunting scenario then no one else should either You should write children's books. High-BC bullets - add down-range energy. And, in the game fields, a placebo for marksmanship. So ya know. GR
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