Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 45-70 and 45-90

Have had and still have a bunch of various 45-70 rifles. Once had 450 alaskan. Currently I've got 45-70 in sharps, ruger no1, Marlin, Browning, and am receiving a Pedersoli 71.

Ok here's the question. If an 45-70 is used with the bullet seated out to the length of an 45-90 would it be basically the same animal. Would there really be any difference?

This in theory could be done in the 1886 and ruger no1 and other single shots.

Yes, it would be the equivalent of the 45-90

Unless of course you set the bullet out on the 45-90. I have a 1885 in 45-90 and I can set the bullet out way further than the 45-70's I have (Marlin and 1886).

The possible power level in my light weight Marlin 45-70 can reach uncomfortable levels such that I would not want to increase it.
My heavy 1886 on the other hand, well I wish it was a 45-90. My 1885 is very heavy and even the heaviest loads are ok.

Only if the throat of your 45-70 chamber will allow you to do so. I have several 45-70's and I don't think any of them would. If you are using smokeless powder then I believe you could load to the equivalent levels.
Rick

As mentioned, if the 45/70 is loaded to the same OAL of a loaded 45/90, the net case capacity is the same (save for any minor brass differences), so performance will be similar. Of course you need to use an 1886 platform or single shot. The Marlins can’t be loaded beyond 2.55” or so, unless they have been modified.

However, the SAAMI 45/70 throat is short to non-existent and with most bullets you simply can’t load to a longer OAL and expect to clear the throat. If you don’t want to alter the throat then you can still achieve a longer LOA but you need to use bullets that are bore riding designs ie they have two diameters: approx 0.449 ahead of the crimp groove and 0.458-0.463 behind the crimp groove. This is what I do. A mould no longer made is Lyman 462560 is a good example. It was designed for bolt action rifles in 458WM and 460Wby. Cast bullets weigh in at around 540gr depending on alloy and it has a flat nose. This bullet seats perfectly in a 45/70 case. Some of the Saeco mould designs work and you can of course get customised moulds from the likes of Accurate Molds. There are a few jacketed designs that work, eg some of the Hornady 500gr pills are a two diameter design and have a flat nose.

By using standard 45/70 length brass and the shorter Hornady length brass your loading options for the long COL 45/70 open up even further. I can load the relatively long NF 450gr CPS to the crimp groove using Hornady brass and it cycles in my Browning.

You can also simply have the throat opened up but you may lose cast bullet accuracy unless you then use cast bullet designs that fill the longer throat. I prefer to use the stock throat and as shown above it is easy to work around.

A 45/70 in an 1886 platform with a stock throat provides a wide range of loading options.

I dont have an 86 but I understand there is some serious length restriction. Although, apparently not as much as the Marlin? News to me on the Marlin. That should translates into your hitting the same max load limit with either brass. In a single shot you can play the same trick with 45/90 and use 500 grain bullets and more powder. My gut feel and that si all I have to go on, in a single shot like the Sharps, the 45/90 is just about the optimum 45 cal ctg. The 45/70 was designed for military and the big 110 ( 2 7/8) kind of a max application. The 45/90 should be just about right. I know it does not matter today, becasue; these guns are no ,longer used as originally intended.

I maybe wrong, but; I think the 45/90 for 1886 was factory loaded different (shorter, lighter bullet) than for the Sharps version. Big time. I am not about to fact check myself with a Google.

Lots of good info above and I read it a dozen times years ago before I bought my Winchester 1886 TD .45-90.

I have also read it many times since I bought my Factory Winchester 1886 .45-90 and it is mostly the same because the facts have not changed.

That is one reason why I just skipped the BS and went with the factory .45-90 , which as you all know shoots 45-70 ammo just fine, so fine that most of my US game has been taken with Winchester factory .45-70 300 grain Nosler PP ammo at a little over 1800 fps. All of the African game has been taken with handloaded ammo and the ele, Cape Buff taken with mostly NF and Punch 450 grain solids at 2150 fps.

Thanks to Winchester for designing and continuing to build one hell of a big bore rifle.

I think that there are some 1886’s that are designed for light bullets with a slow twist. While other 1886’s are better suited for heavier bullets. The Marlins made off the 336 action or 336 action length can only handle shorter cartridges, certainly not 45-90 length. The 1885, at least the one I have can load ammo that is quite long.

I guess it comes down to how much power do you want?

The 45-70 will punch through most any animal. The 45-90 will provide more power/velocity.

If I had a lever action and I wanted more power in the 45 caliber I’d be thinking of the Alaskan.

If you’ve hunted much with the 45-70 I’m not sure you’d be asking for more power - at least I doubt it.

I've had the Browning 1886 Montana commerative 45-70 octagon barrel rifle in New condition, no tang safety and super slick. Also had an winchester extra light 45-70 but sold these last year. The Browning was an incredible rifle but that Cresent butt plate didn't fit my thick shoulder area and killed me to use it.

I still have an C. Sharps, Shiloh, 2 Marlins, Ruger no1 and have an Pedersoli 71 on the way. These are all 45-70.

When it comes to leverguns I doubt there's anything worth a spit of difference between 45-70 and 45-90 because your limited to OAL with either design. Volume is volume with smokeless it's going to be a wash because of working pressure limits. At least that's what I've been thinking.

The bore riding concept of an longer heavy bullet wasn't really on my radar but I can see the reasoning behind it and logic. If I remember correctly I believe I have one of those Lyman moulds that is something like 530gr and I also have an heavy Saeco mould as well. These were acquired when I got my sharps rifles years ago as well as a fee vintage 310 and other loading tools. I've also got an old Wimchester mould that throws heavy 45 cal bullets and I'd wager it was for the HI Wall and not intended for the 1886. So it seems at least I have the tools to at least try this.

My intent is not to hot rod per se an Marlin or winchester leveraction but I'd just like to throw a long heavy bullet at moderate velocity and not beat myself up. I've used some 540 or 550gr bullets in my sharps that were from Hensley Gibbs but that was decades ago and all I remember was that they flee thru thing really well. Haven't had the Ruger no1 long enough to do much with it but I'll have to consider it's throat dimensions and I will also see about the model 71 rifle but I'll keep the bore riding concept out front and center in this.

The Lyman is probably 457125, the Saeco the 1881? Both are bore riding like you mentioned. Extra velocity may flatten trajectory and may help expansion depending on your alloy, but at 30-1 lead/tin, those bullets will fully penetrate almost anything we would normally shoot at.

Regards,
Manny

Forgot to add, you could use a paper patched bullet in your Sharps rifles, patched to under bore size, .448" or .449". The bullet thus loaded can be set way out into the bore, increasing case capacity for blackpowder use.

Regards,
Manny

I have an 1886 in 45-90, and the current Win manufacture is set up for high smokeless power loads, not whatever they had in the earlier (recent) iterations. Should give you the most you can get out of a the rifle as a reloading platform.

For a long time I had been looking for a real slammer up here in Canada. A 50 Alaskan, or 50-100. Nothing ever came up and custom is prohibitively expensive. But I overlooked the potential of a 45-90, and that was what I eventually settled on.

I have a Browning 1886 SRC and even the carbine stocks sting with heavy loads. I had a buttstock off a Win 1886 Extra Light fitted to my Browning. Oddly enough it wasn’t a drop in fit but did fit with a bit of inletting. Why Winchester doesn’t fit more of these shotgun buttstocks is a mystery because they work so well.

I built a 45/90 on a B-71 before I realised I could achieve the same ballistics in my B-1886 in 45/70. Don’t get me wrong I like the 45/90 but the 45/70 loaded appropriately in an 1886 levergun is very versatile and practical.

I’d be interested to hear what you think of your Pedersoli and whether it feeds and cycles longer bore-riding 45/70 loads.

Jfe et al,
Good stuff up above, so thanks.

Just so you understand my motivations; I am not a gun smith or even a gun tinkerer, as I prefer to buy what best meets my needs and shoot it, not work on it.
That is the bottom line on my purchasing an 1886.45-90- . Period. I prefer to shoot .45-90 and .45-70 ammo in my 45-90 rifle as Winchester originally designed it, not play games with cartridge length to meet my objectives.
For all my planned hunting in the USA, the factory .45-70 ammo could meet my needs. It was the planned African hunts that led me to the .45-90. Fortunately, It turned out that modern bullets and powders simplified matters and made expanding the 1886 beyond the 45-90 a waste of time and resources.
The modern Punch and North Fork bullets and N133 powder (lower pressure peak for same velocity) really shined in our bullet/powder testing project and convinced our team that a bigger gun and more powder simply were not needed to kill Africa's biggest and baddest game. It also showed that no scope sights , red dots, or other sighting aids were needed beyond a folding barrel sight and a folding tang peep sight.

We are finally getting some much needed rain here in Texas, so I will now go let the sound of falling rain lull me off to a nap.

It did rain and there is some green grass for a change.

Plus a custom Beretta 45-90 with a scope and two 26 inch barrels!

.45-90 Cartridge with 350 grain NF bullet at 2200-2300 fps:


Goes well with 1886 .45-90 with 26 inch full octagon barrel:


Nice little .45-90 family, eh?

Boy, I'd love to try some of those in my 86!

Jorge,
Well, you can bring your 1886 with you when you come out for the 2023 Safari Club trade show in Dallas and we can sneak out for some shooting practice or exotic game shooting.
The only game I have shot with my .45-90 DR was a Blackbuck at 100 yards and I was a bit over gunned for that little antelope, but there are many places to shoot much larger Antelope such as Nilgai.

BTW, Aaron Little did a great job with the regulation on my .458 2.4 DR as both barrels shoot to within an inch of each other at 100 yards. Eager too try at 200 yards.

Jorge,
Well, you can bring your 1886 with you when you come out for the 2023 Safari Club trade show in Dallas and we can sneak out for some shooting practice or exotic game shooting.
The only game I have shot with my .45-90 DR was a Blackbuck at 100 yards and I was a bit over gunned for that little antelope, but there are many places to shoot much larger Antelope such as Nilgai.

BTW, Aaron Little did a great job with the regulation on my .458 2.4 DR as both barrels shoot to within an inch of each other at 100 yards. Eager too try at 200 yards.