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Originally Posted by RevMike
In other words, is it possible to force a barrel to "like" a particular bullet by simply changing one or more of the load components (i.e., powder, case, primer)?
In my opinion, the answer is yes. For a stubborn rifle/bullet combination the question becomes, how many resources are you willing to continue to expend. I think that's why, subconsciously, we have many threads, on this forums or others, wherein people ask for the loads of other members with respect to a specific cartridge, bullet, powder, brass or primer or a combination thereof.


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Originally Posted by RevMike
Gents:

I've often wondered about a rifle that simply won't shoot a particular bullet or bullet weight well. There is a thread right now in the reloading forum about shooting the 140gr TSX in the 7x57, and BSA responded, in part, "It" - the rifle - "may just not like those Barnes." I'm sure we've all had rifle bullet combinations about which we can say the same thing.

A lot is written about finding optimal charge weights, COALs, etc., in load development: all very true. But if a rifle still doesn't shoot a particular bullet very well, is it really that the barrel and bullet are incompatible, or is it that the load recipe just isn't working? In other words, is it possible to force a barrel to "like" a particular bullet by simply changing one or more of the load components (i.e., powder, case, primer)?

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You won't force it to shoot.

It will force you to try something different until you find that magical recipe unless it just happens to be junk and won't shoot.

My only real example of taking a gun that was a shiitshow and then found what it liked was a Ruger 77 MKII that did not like a boat tail bullet, 3" groups. Stuffed a flat based Sierra in it and 3 shots under 3/4" was the norm.

Had a Savage LR Hunter 25-06 that was a pretty good shooter staying just around an inch but a CCI Mag primer made it a 1/2-5/8" gun. Same charge and bullet just swapped primers.


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This might be one of the more useful recent discussions on here. I don't want to think about the $$$ and time I often waste deciding on a bullet and then trying to force it to shoot out of a certain rifle when some other basically similar bullet shoots fine.

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And then there is concentricity. Some seating dies don't match up well with certain bullets and tend to induce runout that the handloader might not notice. Another bullet choice might load true and shoot much better.


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Originally Posted by JPro
And then there is concentricity. Some seating dies don't match up well with certain bullets and tend to induce runout that the handloader might not notice. Another bullet choice might load true and shoot much better.

Yep--and yet a lot of handloaders STILL never test for bullet concentricity, yet bitch about a certain bullet not shooting well.

However, a lot depends on your standards. Have mentioned before that 1-1/2", 3-shot groups at 100 yards will work for typical deer hunting (or even pronghorns) out to 300 yards or so--if the shooter's competent.

But I also know one handloader who brags that his big game rifles are "really accurate" when 100-yard groups average around 1-1/2". He also brags that he's never tested any of his handloads for bullet concentricity....


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Some of the same guys are weighing charges to the nearest 1/10 of a gnat's ass and have no idea if their cartridges are straight.

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Yep!

As mentioned above, I know one handloader who brags that he's never checked bullet alignment on his rounds. But he's also stated that one of his rifles really shoots well, as in 1-1/2 inch 3-shot groups at 100 yards.

Last edited by Mule Deer; 07/01/22. Reason: added comment

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
However, a lot depends on your standards

Your standards, and your TIME and MONEY. I might be a bit bull headed,(or too cheap) but any of my rifles that shoot lights out, keep getting fed that load. I don’t want to spend the time or money trying to “make” it shoot a different bullet, even if I have a ton of other bullets to choose from. I love shooting, and love small groups, but I’d rather sell bullets that don’t work for me and that rifle, than burn money trying to “make” them work. Like I said though…I may be a bit bull headed. Happy shooting!

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Originally Posted by mathman
Some of the same guys are weighing charges to the nearest 1/10 of a gnat's ass and have no idea if their cartridges are straight.

I’ve tested concentricity a bunch. It’s necessity is a bit over blown. Within reason.

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How do you define "within reason?"

Just curious, partly because quite a few people have done considerable research on the subject.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
How do you define "within reason?"

Just curious, partly because quite a few people have done considerable research on the subject.

I know. I just did a quick google on it. The 1000 yard group guys seem to think it’s largely overblown as well.

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Could you provide a link?


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Here is one. I would have said 10. But he is saying 15 thou.


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Variable probably matter and in every case some perhaps more than others. Every load or recipe is it's own animal I'd wager.

Personally I think all of it gets overblown once a load that performs is found to work. The big enchilada is really being practical and skilled at field positional shooting. I've prac5iced this year and can get acceptable results to 400yd distance but farther I'm only capable off my pack, in the prone, or rested on something then it's easy peasy.

Thank the good Lord I'm blessed in my location to be able to practice in canyons and steep high angle field positions and practicing even a little has vastly made the biggest difference.

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pathfinder76,

The video's interesting, but it depends on what the purpose of the load is, the rifle, etc. etc.

One of my local friends is a 1000-yard benchrest shooter (which is a different game than F-class) who twice broke the world record for a 5-shot group. Both groups were around 2.5 inches--about 1/4 MOA. I can assure you he pays very close attention to every detail of his handloads, including bullet concentricity.

I got my first alignment gauge around 30 years ago, an RCBS Casemaster, and the instructions suggested that .003 maximum run-out worked best with varmint loads, and .003-.005 in big game loads. I have pretty much found that to be true, though often it varies depending on the rifle, especially with factory rifles, because their chambers and bores aren't as tight or precise.

If the chamber and barrel is a good custom job, it tends to makes more difference, even with factory ammo. One test I ran was with Hornady Light Magnum factory 7x57 ammo. The rifle was a custom with a tighter chamber/throat than usual, and as I recall a Hart barrel, and was going to be used on a Coues deer hunt in Mexico that was coming up quickly. Rather than try to work up a load, I decided to see how the factory ammo shot. (Coues deer are typically even smaller than pronghorns. The chest depths of the ones I've measured have gone 12-13 inches, from back to brisket, including hair--which means a vital area of about half that. Since they're often shot at longer ranges, accuracy does help.)

I'd purchased three boxes of the ammo at a store in Wyoming, which was loaded with the 139-grain Hornady boat-tail Spire Point Interlock. I sorted the three boxes by bullet run-out, to basically the same standards RCBS suggested, less than .003, .003-.005, and over .005. As I recall some of the rounds were up to .007 or so.

Then I shot a 3-shot group with each batch, in very calm conditions. The over-.005 group went 1.59 inches, the .003-.005 batch went 1.03, and the less than .003 batch .74. Shot another 3-shot group on arrival at the hunting camp in Sonora, which went around half an inch.

As it turned out I didn't have to shoot at 400+ yards, but only around 220. But if the shot had been at 400, the over-.005 ammo would have grouped around 6 inches MINIMUM at 400. Theoretically this is good enough for 6-inch vital area--if the shooter's hold is perfect, and wind isn't a consideration. Have made the same sort of tests in varying mounts of wind, and even a pretty mild breeze, say 5 mph, can increase group size by at least 50%, especially in mountainous country, where winds can go in any direction.

Some target games require more accuracy than others, and not just 1000-yard benchrest shooting but "short-range" bench shooting. My 6mm PPC benchrest rifle will consistently put 5 shots into less than .2 inch with its best loads, and has averaged .15 during some load work-up, in perfect conditions. But it will NOT do that if bullet concentricity is over .0005 inch--and that is NOT a misplaced decimal. That's the maximum run-out of my handloads. With even .002 runout, group sizes double.

I also prefer minimum run-out in my varmint loads, especially for burrowing rodents, because even a big prairie dog isn't wider than 3 inches--which is a pretty small target at, 500 yards. Young Richardson's ground squirrels are often only an inch wide--a pretty small target at 300 yards. To be able to consistently hit them, even in very little wind, requires sub-half-inch accuracy at 100 yards. And yes, I try to load so bullet run-out is .002 or less, because have found it does make a difference, even at only 200-300 yards in typical wind conditions.

Should also point out that the 3-shot groups many big game hunters typically shoot do NOT reflect the average widest spread of a rifle and load. Five shots come closer to maximum spread, and are what I shoot when accuracy really matters--because 5-shot groups average about 1.5 times as large as 3-shot groups. (Statistically, 6-shot groups tend to show a rifle/load's realistic maximum spread slightly better than 5-shot groups, but shooting them would confuse readers.)


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I've tried to force feed several rifles my bullet of preference. I've shot $1000s in components trying to do so. Nosler are my bullet of choice normally - but there are a bunch of good options these days. My normal progression is Nosler PT, Nos AB, Fed Trophy Bonded. I've been able to make one of those 3 work. Lately I've been on a mono kick. Nos etip and TTSX are my choices. I've yet to have a rifle not shoot either, and many times both, of those 2 monos.

I also do the same with powder. I've narrowed my powder choices to those that fall in the less temperature sensitivity range. Alot of Hod Extreme, some newer IMRs, some Aliants.

I've sold rifles that didn't play well with my preferred bullets/powders rather than spend a pile of money trying to solve an issue. If it is bedded correctly, has known mounts/scopes, and won't shoot - it goes down the road or gets rebarreled. Rebarrelling solves alot of angst and issues. And in the end is way cheaper than starting over with a new rifle.

I also learned the value of concentric ammo from MD - thank you again! Once I started measuring and straightening, most of the weirdness went away. When I got my tools, I was surprised to see how much my ammo varied. In the same box, some were within 0.002, but went to 0.025 if my memory serves me correctly. I would get alot of 2 tougher, 3rd out groups in those days. Not so much any more. Good discussion.


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Originally Posted by pathfinder76
[/quote]I’ve tested concentricity a bunch. It’s necessity is a bit over blown. Within reason.

I'm suspicious of that.


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Originally Posted by FC363
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
I’ve tested concentricity a bunch. It’s necessity is a bit over blown. Within reason.

I'm suspicious of that.[/quote]

Laughing. Be suspicious of it all you like. Test it yourself.

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What is "bullet concentricity" and how is it measured?

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Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by FC363
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
I’ve tested concentricity a bunch. It’s necessity is a bit over blown. Within reason.

I'm suspicious of that.

Laughing. Be suspicious of it all you like. Test it yourself.[/quote]

Would like to hear your own tests, instead of what you Googled up....


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