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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by rickt300
Wrong the rulings will effects state laws nation wide.

Negative. Ninth Circuit rulings are only binding precedent in the states within the Ninth Circuit. They are only persuasive authority otherwise.

Negative... They were remanded based on First Circuit Precedent and therefore incorporated on all 50 states.

Any examples of a circuit court ruling being binding in all states?

I always thought cicuit courts only had jurisdiction in their circuit.


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Originally Posted by JoeBob
We’ve been getting rolled by Yankee commies since 1865.


Those bastards!


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First, higher courts bind lower courts within their particular state or circuit. With the
exception of the U.S. Supreme Court, courts of appeals and state courts do not bind courts
outside the state or circuit in which they are located. That is, a federal Supreme Court decision is
binding on all lower federal courts, both circuit courts of appeals and district courts. A federal
circuit decision is binding on all federal district courts within its circuit, but not federal courts in
other circuits. For example, a decision of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit binds
the U.S. district courts within the Ninth Circuit, but not federal courts in any other circuit.
However, a district court or trial court decision would not bind higher courts. A decision by a
state’s highest court is binding on all appeals courts and trial courts in that state, but not on state
courts in other states, and usually, a state court of appeals’ decision binds state trial courts in that
state.

Second, with the exception of the U.S. Supreme Court, federal courts bind only other
federal courts, not state courts. Thus, a decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth
Circuit, a federal court, is binding on federal district courts within the boundaries of the Ninth
Circuit. It is not binding on California state courts, even though California is geographically
within the Ninth Circuit. Similarly, state courts bind only other state courts within the state.
A decision of the California Supreme Court would thus bind other California state courts, not
state courts in any other state. However, sometimes a federal court must apply a state’s law. In
that case, the state’s interpretation of that law is binding on the federal court. Therefore, a
California Supreme Court decision on a matter of California law would bind federal courts on
that state law issue. Similarly, state courts must sometimes decide issues of federal law, but they
are not bound by federal courts except the U.S. Supreme Court. A decision of the U.S. Supreme
Court, a federal court, is binding on state courts when it decides an issue of federal law, such as
Constitutional interpretation.


FROM: https://www.law.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Which-Court-is-Binding-HandoutFinal.pdf


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Originally Posted by MickeyD
Originally Posted by Remsen
The NFA would likely be considered one of the longstanding gun regulations that both Heller and this case say are Constitutional.
Perhaps, but....
New York's Sullivan Act predates the NFA by nearly 30 years. Wasn't that shot down by the NYSRPA decision?

I hope I'm wrong, but I think that approach would be seen as being too literal by the court. The language in bold, that was first used in Heller and was reiterated in Bruen, seems to describe most of what the NFA does:


"[N]othing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt
on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding
the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as
schools and government buildings, or laws imposing
conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of
arms
. [Footnote 26: We identify these presumptively
lawful regulatory measures only as examples; our list
does not purport to be exhaustive]."

Parts of the NFA might be subject to attack, but I think the Court was signaling that existing federal laws like the NFA are in the clear.


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Originally Posted by Remsen
Originally Posted by MickeyD
Originally Posted by Remsen
The NFA would likely be considered one of the longstanding gun regulations that both Heller and this case say are Constitutional.
Perhaps, but....
New York's Sullivan Act predates the NFA by nearly 30 years. Wasn't that shot down by the NYSRPA decision?

I hope I'm wrong, but I think that approach would be seen as being too literal by the court. The language in bold, that was first used in Heller and was reiterated in Bruen, seems to describe most of what the NFA does:


"[N]othing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt
on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding
the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as
schools and government buildings, or laws imposing
conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of
arms
. [Footnote 26: We identify these presumptively
lawful regulatory measures only as examples; our list
does not purport to be exhaustive]."

Parts of the NFA might be subject to attack, but I think the Court was signaling that existing federal laws like the NFA are in the clear.

FROM the Opinion: Bottom of page 27, top of 28

Thus, “postratification adoption or acceptance of laws that are inconsistent with the original meaning of the constitutional text obviously cannot overcome or alter that text.”


"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867

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I don't want to derail this thread, but there are lots of intelligent opinions here and I think my question might be related. Given the 2A win this week and the EPA win that might impact the overreach of the other 3-letter agencies (specifically the ATF), does anyone have any insight as to what they expect could/might happen with the upcoming ATF decision regarding AR pistols that was supposed to come out this month or next?

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by rickt300
Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by ElAhrairah
How will this affect the WA mag ban that goes into effect tomorrow?
IMO, the odds of them coming up with an argument that a mag ban is constitutional that follows the rules laid down in NYSPRA are slim. If they try it and lose in the Supreme Court, the new SCOTUS decision would apply to the entire country.

I'm sure that the en banc panel would rather eat broken glass than declare the mag bans unconstitutional, but there is a strategic advantage to it; the ruling would only apply to the states in the Ninth circuit, which would include WA and CA. This would delay nationwide coverage of the ruling, during which they would hope for some seismic change in the composition of the court.

Wrong the rulings will effects state laws nation wide.

Negative. Ninth Circuit rulings are only binding precedent in the states within the Ninth Circuit. They are only persuasive authority otherwise.

Negative... They were remanded based on First Circuit Precedent and therefore incorporated on all 50 states.
Ok, Sitka, could you explain what "First Circuit Precedent" is and how it would make a Ninth Circuit ruling binding on all 50 states?

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Originally Posted by Lee_R
I don't want to derail this thread, but there are lots of intelligent opinions here and I think my question might be related. Given the 2A win this week and the EPA win that might impact the overreach of the other 3-letter agencies (specifically the ATF), does anyone have any insight as to what they expect could/might happen with the upcoming ATF decision regarding AR pistols that was supposed to come out this month or next?

Thanks in advance.

Been wondering on that. As near as I can ascertain the current working definition of ‘pistol’ includes a barrel less than 16” and an overall length 26” or less. I’m not sure that is included in the NFA. If it is not, and the ATF is using their own expansion of what is written, then Congress will have to establish the parameters defining “pistol”. I do know the ‘short barreled rifle’ definition and inclusion in controlled weapons is questionable as far as original intent. These dimensions allow departmental interpretation of what is a pistol and what is a SBR to begin with.

All this and more add up to confusion about what is a pistol, what is a SBR, and what arms can be equipped with a brace without running afoul of ATF’s interpretation. And more bigly are these ‘interpretations’ subject to ATF definitions or subject to strict adherence to the 2nd Amendment.

Last edited by shootem; 07/01/22.

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Originally Posted by Lee_R
I don't want to derail this thread, but there are lots of intelligent opinions here and I think my question might be related. Given the 2A win this week and the EPA win that might impact the overreach of the other 3-letter agencies (specifically the ATF), does anyone have any insight as to what they expect could/might happen with the upcoming ATF decision regarding AR pistols that was supposed to come out this month or next?

Thanks in advance.

Not a attorney, but I'd guess, and it's only that, the ATF and various state governments are going to make you sue the relevant law, or rule. I think the brace ban will be enforced until someone sues them. Depending on who you read, there are from anywhere 35000-40000 gun control laws on the books, and as I read SCOTUS's decison they are illegal. All of them. Unless they existed in 1791. So these ten day waiting periods, one gun a month purchase laws, Red flag laws and everything else in a just world should be null and void as of a couple of days ago. But they will stay on the books until someone gets arrested over them and just keeps appealing.

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Originally Posted by Lee_R
I don't want to derail this thread, but there are lots of intelligent opinions here and I think my question might be related. Given the 2A win this week and the EPA win that might impact the overreach of the other 3-letter agencies (specifically the ATF), does anyone have any insight as to what they expect could/might happen with the upcoming ATF decision regarding AR pistols that was supposed to come out this month or next?

Thanks in advance.
If Heller is applied then they’re common use weapons and the West Virginia case is applied that’s in question also. The West Virginia case is somewhat vague about where the line is on regulatory power to create “law”. There’s going to be a bunch of cases testing the reach of the West Virginia case. The ATF’s reinterpretation of what is a firearm is in the application to the AR platform is something that would appear to run afoul of the West Virginia case. Congress wrote a clear definition and the ATF has expanded that to include the AR. It will be interesting.


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Thank you @shootem , @ Lee_Woiteshek and @Daveinjax for your thoughts, much appreciated Gentlemen. Have a great 4th!

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Ken Paxton, AG of Texas, filed a suit in Federal District Court over suppressors made in Texas in Febuary.

It's going to be interesting to see how this track shakes out with the NYSRPA case defining the way courts must decide 2nd A cases.


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There might be a case to be made against ANY federal regulation of firearms that falls outside of taxing authority. Clearly, when they made the original NFA in the 1930s, they thought the federal taxing authority was the only way to get at it. So, there might be a chance to get rid of ALL federal regulations not based on taxing authority and for those to be given very close scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by rickt300
Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by ElAhrairah
How will this affect the WA mag ban that goes into effect tomorrow?
IMO, the odds of them coming up with an argument that a mag ban is constitutional that follows the rules laid down in NYSPRA are slim. If they try it and lose in the Supreme Court, the new SCOTUS decision would apply to the entire country.

I'm sure that the en banc panel would rather eat broken glass than declare the mag bans unconstitutional, but there is a strategic advantage to it; the ruling would only apply to the states in the Ninth circuit, which would include WA and CA. This would delay nationwide coverage of the ruling, during which they would hope for some seismic change in the composition of the court.

Wrong the rulings will effects state laws nation wide.

Negative. Ninth Circuit rulings are only binding precedent in the states within the Ninth Circuit. They are only persuasive authority otherwise.

Negative... They were remanded based on First Circuit Precedent and therefore incorporated on all 50 states.
Ok, Sitka, could you explain what "First Circuit Precedent" is and how it would make a Ninth Circuit ruling binding on all 50 states?


Because it is a constitutional ruling and that affects all 50 states



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"Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned."

Since Congress approved this in Maine's Constitution in 1820 doesn't it preempt all gun or other weapon control laws? It certainly makes all my legislators guilty of oath violations.


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Originally Posted by JoeBob
There might be a case to be made against ANY federal regulation of firearms that falls outside of taxing authority. Clearly, when they made the original NFA in the 1930s, they thought the federal taxing authority was the only way to get at it. So, there might be a chance to get rid of ALL federal regulations not based on taxing authority and for those to be given very close scrutiny.

We’re I writing opinion that’s pretty much what I’d say. 2A is amazingly simply to carry such weight as delegated by the founders. Misinterpretation has to be intentional. The federal government is constitutionally prohibited from not only banning certain firearms but prohibited from infringing on the peoples’ right to not only keep but freely bear arms. Infringement must also include taxes on firearms and ammunition EVEN Pittman-Robertson. Going beyond the ATF and state authorities these type restrictions must include agencies charged with enforcing congressional law such as EPA and IRS. The biggie yet to fall is the IRS. One can dream.


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Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by rickt300
Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by ElAhrairah
How will this affect the WA mag ban that goes into effect tomorrow?
IMO, the odds of them coming up with an argument that a mag ban is constitutional that follows the rules laid down in NYSPRA are slim. If they try it and lose in the Supreme Court, the new SCOTUS decision would apply to the entire country.

I'm sure that the en banc panel would rather eat broken glass than declare the mag bans unconstitutional, but there is a strategic advantage to it; the ruling would only apply to the states in the Ninth circuit, which would include WA and CA. This would delay nationwide coverage of the ruling, during which they would hope for some seismic change in the composition of the court.

Wrong the rulings will effects state laws nation wide.

Negative. Ninth Circuit rulings are only binding precedent in the states within the Ninth Circuit. They are only persuasive authority otherwise.

Negative... They were remanded based on First Circuit Precedent and therefore incorporated on all 50 states.
Ok, Sitka, could you explain what "First Circuit Precedent" is and how it would make a Ninth Circuit ruling binding on all 50 states?
As explained to me, SCOTUS remanded a Ninth Circuit ruling specifically citing a First Circuit Decision. Doing so proves the precedent applies beyond the First.


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by rickt300
Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by ElAhrairah
How will this affect the WA mag ban that goes into effect tomorrow?
IMO, the odds of them coming up with an argument that a mag ban is constitutional that follows the rules laid down in NYSPRA are slim. If they try it and lose in the Supreme Court, the new SCOTUS decision would apply to the entire country.

I'm sure that the en banc panel would rather eat broken glass than declare the mag bans unconstitutional, but there is a strategic advantage to it; the ruling would only apply to the states in the Ninth circuit, which would include WA and CA. This would delay nationwide coverage of the ruling, during which they would hope for some seismic change in the composition of the court.

Wrong the rulings will effects state laws nation wide.

Negative. Ninth Circuit rulings are only binding precedent in the states within the Ninth Circuit. They are only persuasive authority otherwise.

Negative... They were remanded based on First Circuit Precedent and therefore incorporated on all 50 states.
Ok, Sitka, could you explain what "First Circuit Precedent" is and how it would make a Ninth Circuit ruling binding on all 50 states?
As explained to me, SCOTUS remanded a Ninth Circuit ruling specifically citing a First Circuit Decision. Doing so proves the precedent applies beyond the First.

PRECEDENT of the First does NOT apply beyond the First.

Precedent of the First does NOT apply to the SCOTUS, BUT.....

If the Supreme Court Cites the First it supports the decision of the First, and if they make it a decision/Opinion of the Supreme Court it then DOES apply to all..... Not as an Opinion of the First, but that of the SCOTUS...


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You guys must believe constitutional laws matter. I seem to remember our illegitimate president swore to uphold our constitution and protect our country. Leaving our southern border open should get him sent to jail immediately. Gun laws are already being ignored around the country in every liberal [bleep] hole state. To expect anything the SCOTUS does to change this is a pipe dream. Nobody is going to jail so nothing will change.


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Originally Posted by Muffin
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by rickt300
Originally Posted by natman
Originally Posted by ElAhrairah
How will this affect the WA mag ban that goes into effect tomorrow?
IMO, the odds of them coming up with an argument that a mag ban is constitutional that follows the rules laid down in NYSPRA are slim. If they try it and lose in the Supreme Court, the new SCOTUS decision would apply to the entire country.

I'm sure that the en banc panel would rather eat broken glass than declare the mag bans unconstitutional, but there is a strategic advantage to it; the ruling would only apply to the states in the Ninth circuit, which would include WA and CA. This would delay nationwide coverage of the ruling, during which they would hope for some seismic change in the composition of the court.

Wrong the rulings will effects state laws nation wide.

Negative. Ninth Circuit rulings are only binding precedent in the states within the Ninth Circuit. They are only persuasive authority otherwise.

Negative... They were remanded based on First Circuit Precedent and therefore incorporated on all 50 states.
Ok, Sitka, could you explain what "First Circuit Precedent" is and how it would make a Ninth Circuit ruling binding on all 50 states?
As explained to me, SCOTUS remanded a Ninth Circuit ruling specifically citing a First Circuit Decision. Doing so proves the precedent applies beyond the First.

PRECEDENT of the First does NOT apply beyond the First.

Precedent of the First does NOT apply to the SCOTUS, BUT.....

If the Supreme Court Cites the First it supports the decision of the First, and if they make it a decision/Opinion of the Supreme Court it then DOES apply to all..... Not as an Opinion of the First, but that of the SCOTUS...
SCOTUS remanded the Ninth circuit ruling and cited the NY ruling they just made as guidance for their decision.


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