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Defiance #17387319 07/02/22 Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia R RoyalKnight OP Campfire Member OP RoyalKnight Campfire Member R Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia Just ordered a short action tenacity with a magnum bolt face. Was leaning toward a 338 sherman short mag with a 22 inch barrel. Torn on what chamber I want to do. Mostly for deer,hog an bear. Have you built with a defiance? What chamber did you go with? Let's see your builds!!!

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17387359 07/02/22 Joined: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,981 Havre MT S sherm_61 Campfire Regular sherm_61 Campfire Regular S Joined: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,981 Havre MT There a good action, no different than any other 700 footprint as long as you have the proper length, boltface and bottom metal for intended cartridge.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17387729 07/02/22 Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 J JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter J Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 I had Shaen profile, chamber, and install a barrel (280AI) on a long action anTi. I'm really happy with the end result. Like the action a lot. I put a Proof pre-fit 20" .308 carbon barrel on a short action anTi and hunted it a fair bit last year. Very accurate, installation was super easy. I was very happy with it but decided to rebarrel to 7-08 so I've ordered a 22" pre-fit Lilja #1 for it. Depending on how the throat's cut I'll either run AICS mags or use a Hawkins M5 BDL and 3" mag box. It will be a while before I receive the 7-08 barrel. Being that I was going to be left with the .308 pre-fit I picked up a Tenacity action. It just came back from coating so I'll probably remove it from the anTi action in the next day or so and put it on the Tenacity. Don't have any use on the Tenacity action yet but it seems very nice, though a fair bit heavier than the anTi. The rail that comes with it is pretty sweet but it pretty heavy since it's stainless rather than aluminum. If weight isn't a concern then the Tenacity seems to be an excellent deal....will know more after I put it to use. I'll try to remember to get some pics of the anTi and Tenacity short actions and their weights and post them when I remove the .308 barrel. Could help some folks see the differences and make decisions.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17387966 07/02/22 Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,464 jennings lodge, oregon Oregonmuley Campfire Tracker Oregonmuley Campfire Tracker Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,464 jennings lodge, oregon Have 2 Defiance Rebel short action builds, both 7MM-08's built by Shaen who did a fantastic job. May have send him another box of parts for a new build since the 1st two turned out so good!! "Rather hunt Mule deer than anything else" "Team 7MM-08"

Re: Defiance JCMCUBIC #17388023 07/02/22 Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,357 D drano 25 Campfire Regular drano 25 Campfire Regular D Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,357 Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC I had Shaen profile, chamber, and install a barrel (280AI) on a long action anTi. I'm really happy with the end result. Like the action a lot. I put a Proof pre-fit 20" .308 carbon barrel on a short action anTi and hunted it a fair bit last year. Very accurate, installation was super easy. I was very happy with it but decided to rebarrel to 7-08 so I've ordered a 22" pre-fit Lilja #1 for it. Depending on how the throat's cut I'll either run AICS mags or use a Hawkins M5 BDL and 3" mag box. It will be a while before I receive the 7-08 barrel. Being that I was going to be left with the .308 pre-fit I picked up a Tenacity action. It just came back from coating so I'll probably remove it from the anTi action in the next day or so and put it on the Tenacity. Don't have any use on the Tenacity action yet but it seems very nice, though a fair bit heavier than the anTi. The rail that comes with it is pretty sweet but it pretty heavy since it's stainless rather than aluminum. If weight isn't a concern then the Tenacity seems to be an excellent deal....will know more after I put it to use. I'll try to remember to get some pics of the anTi and Tenacity short actions and their weights and post them when I remove the .308 barrel. Could help some folks see the differences and make decisions. There are pics with weights of my AnTi short action in this thread. I talked to Shaen yesterday. I plan to ship it along with my other parts to him next week. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...-action-receiver-components#Post16906171 Last edited by drano 25; 07/02/22. Don't speculate when you don't know, and don't second guess when you do.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17389721 07/02/22 Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia R RoyalKnight OP Campfire Member OP RoyalKnight Campfire Member R Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia I appreciate all the input gentleman! Shaen does fabulous work. He barreled an action for me last year.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17389750 07/02/22 Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 J JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter J Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 Back to the OP's original question about chambering.... I've not played with a Sherman SM or researched it, but if OAL's can stay under 3" with the bullets you wish to use it would probably work well in the Tenacity. I think the Tenacity is made with either a BDL or DBM magazine cut so that could make a difference depending on what you're wanting to do for bottom metal/mag box. I knew I was going to use AICS mags with mine so I ordered the DBM cut. I pulled the proof .308 barrel off of my anTi today and installed it on the Tenacity. Degreased and loctited the base, mounted and leveled scope, put it in a MDT chassis until I can remove bedding from another stock I'm going to put it in. The barrel swap is just to easy....it may ruin me. I took pics of the action/bolt/rail weights and I'll try to post them in the thread above tomorrow. Pretty interesting the difference between it and the anTi.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17390138 07/03/22 Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,932 D devnull Campfire Regular devnull Campfire Regular D Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,932 I have a Defiance Deviant left-handed action that was barreled by Southern Precision Rifles (bugholes.com) in 6.5 Creedmoor, I put it in an MPA Competition chassis. It is one of my most accurate rifles. As for the action, I have Borden, Surgeon, Bighorn and blueprinted Remingtons. The Defiance is the best of them all in terms of finish. I would definitely buy another Defiance if in the market but it would have to be one of theirs that guarantees headspace.

Re: Defiance devnull #17390309 07/03/22 Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,493 virginia G gene270 Campfire Tracker gene270 Campfire Tracker G Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,493 virginia i like my defiance but prefer the borden ...the defiance is clunky when i operate the bolt the borden smooth as glass

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17455062 07/25/22 Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 17,170 Northern California Hammerdown Campfire Ranger Hammerdown Campfire Ranger Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 17,170 Northern California Gotta love that smooth as glass part. Wishing y’all the best. Randy NRA Patriot Life Benefactor

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17457153 07/25/22 Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia R RoyalKnight OP Campfire Member OP RoyalKnight Campfire Member R Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia I appreciate the responses gentleman. I am still torn on what chambering I am going to go with.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17457207 07/25/22 Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,352 Denver 30338 Campfire Outfitter 30338 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,352 Denver I'd build whatever would shoot a 6.5 caliber Berger 140 vld the best. Thinking on that bolt face a PRC would be the easy button.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17469257 07/30/22 Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 13,091 Kodiak & AZ D dennisinaz Campfire Outfitter dennisinaz Campfire Outfitter D Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 13,091 Kodiak & AZ See my post on the anTi built in rail. The scope rail spacing is not Picatinney spec. You can't swap scopes. If I ordered a built in rail I would want that flexibility NRA Benefactor Member Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Re: Defiance dennisinaz #17470145 07/30/22 Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 27,925 TN A alwaysoutdoors Campfire Ranger alwaysoutdoors Campfire Ranger A Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 27,925 TN Originally Posted by dennisinaz See my post on the anTi built in rail. The scope rail spacing is not Picatinney spec. You can't swap scopes. If I ordered a built in rail I would want that flexibility Have a picture of the issue?

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17470179 07/30/22 Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 13,091 Kodiak & AZ D dennisinaz Campfire Outfitter dennisinaz Campfire Outfitter D Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 13,091 Kodiak & AZ No. Hold a picatinney rail along side an anTi. If you match up the slots on the rear bridge, the front ones will be slightly off NRA Benefactor Member Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17470815 07/30/22 Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 573 Kansas H headspace Campfire Regular headspace Campfire Regular H Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 573 Kansas 7mmsaum.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17470824 07/30/22 Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 573 Kansas H headspace Campfire Regular headspace Campfire Regular H Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 573 Kansas 350 Remington mag

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17471021 07/30/22 Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 13,091 Kodiak & AZ D dennisinaz Campfire Outfitter dennisinaz Campfire Outfitter D Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 13,091 Kodiak & AZ The one i had the issue with is 7 saum NRA Benefactor Member Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17471733 07/31/22 Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,228 Rainy Western Wa MallardAddict Campfire Tracker MallardAddict Campfire Tracker Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,228 Rainy Western Wa The Sherman rounds are interesting in theory but the velocities typically posted are often suspect and have had no actual pressure testing done, just standard pressure “signs”. Odd to me to market a round without actual pressure data when a Pressure Trace is about $1000. Rich’s rounds are mostly just shortened .100” from the parent, taper blown out and essentially an Ackley shoulder and reportedly get and extra 150fps at “less” pressure then a standard saum or wsm comparable. Speed of course = pressure but he seems to think otherwise and since his brass (ADG made) doesn’t show pressure he says it’s fine. Adg like Lapua is harder then Win, RP etc and won’t show pressure as soon/easy but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I’ve had 2 Sherman chambered rifles and never gotten the velocities stared at pressure levels I felt were entirely safe. Just my .02

Re: Defiance MallardAddict #17496924 08/08/22 Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia R RoyalKnight OP Campfire Member OP RoyalKnight Campfire Member R Joined: Jun 2019 Posts: 243 North Georgia Originally Posted by MallardAddict The Sherman rounds are interesting in theory but the velocities typically posted are often suspect and have had no actual pressure testing done, just standard pressure “signs”. Odd to me to market a round without actual pressure data when a Pressure Trace is about $1000. Rich’s rounds are mostly just shortened .100” from the parent, taper blown out and essentially an Ackley shoulder and reportedly get and extra 150fps at “less” pressure then a standard saum or wsm comparable. Speed of course = pressure but he seems to think otherwise and since his brass (ADG made) doesn’t show pressure he says it’s fine. Adg like Lapua is harder then Win, RP etc and won’t show pressure as soon/easy but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I’ve had 2 Sherman chambered rifles and never gotten the velocities stared at pressure levels I felt were entirely safe. Just my .02 Thank you!!

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17496959 08/08/22 Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas D Darryle Campfire Regular Darryle Campfire Regular D Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas Just ordered my 4th Defiance action. 2 Tenacity and 2 Anti, thinking about a 3rd Anti. Tenacity - 7mm-08 Anti - 280 Ackley Anti - 25-280 Ackley Anti - 26-280 Ackley Leaves me with a long action Tenacity with a standard bolt face. Considering a 6mm-280 Ackley I just went with the 25 & 26 monikers to be different, so if I did a 6mm, it'd be a 24-280 Ackley. You can now get a Tenacity, Anti or AntiX with either 5* or 10* more downward angle on the bolt handle to increase clearance between the handle and any ocular. I ordered from Pucker Factor Precision, he had quite a bit of inventory and was honoring current prices on his inventory even though Defiance increased prices across the board. NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member

Re: Defiance Darryle #17497219 08/09/22 Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 J JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter J Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 Originally Posted by Darryle ......... You can now get a Tenacity, Anti or AntiX with either 5* or 10* more downward angle on the bolt handle to increase clearance between the handle and any ocular. ................ That's a great thing. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if they will make a change to an older model?

Re: Defiance JCMCUBIC #17497594 08/09/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC Originally Posted by Darryle ......... You can now get a Tenacity, Anti or AntiX with either 5* or 10* more downward angle on the bolt handle to increase clearance between the handle and any ocular. ................ That's a great thing. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if they will make a change to an older model? Yes it is and a retrofit would be nice. I'm thinking a call to Defiance is in order. I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance Darryle #17498510 08/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Darryle, I have a Tenacity SA 308 and I'm having trouble mounting a scope, bolt handle hitting scope at ocular end, won't cycle, have you had any sort of similar problem?

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17500451 08/10/22 Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas D Darryle Campfire Regular Darryle Campfire Regular D Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas Originally Posted by 257Bob Darryle, I have a Tenacity SA 308 and I'm having trouble mounting a scope, bolt handle hitting scope at ocular end, won't cycle, have you had any sort of similar problem? I have had this issue, eliminating it on future builds. I am ordering with the 10* handle and using the Manners stocks with their new lightweight adjustable comb. Short of sending the action back to Defiance for the upgraded new style bolt, you could try the swept tear drop bolt handle, it is .095" smaller in diameter and a considerable bit lighter NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17500482 08/10/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... Not quite what I envisioned as far as a 'swept' bolt handle. I'll be watching, and hoping to see that swept handle installed and how it clears the scope. I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance Darryle #17500612 08/10/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Thanks Darryle, that's the same experience I had, I was going to order high rings but I got on the phone with Defiance and they said they would warranty the bolt and "make me a new one". I took apart the rifle yesterday, pulled the barrel and shipped the receiver off to Defiance, going with a "new" design and a 10 degree bolt. I really can't understand how this ever got out the door, I've mounted dozens of scopes on all sorts of rifles and never had a problem like this. I bought my action in January and when they looked up the serial #, they said "yeah, that's an older action". Anyway, they are going to make it right but it looks like I'll be set back a few months before I can use it. I will say their actions with pre-fit capabilities makes it super easy for a DIY rifle build. I bought the action, screwed on a Proof pre-fit, ran the head space gauges through it and was ready to go (or at least I thought until the scope arrived).

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17500816 08/10/22 Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas D Darryle Campfire Regular Darryle Campfire Regular D Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas Bob, I think the Tenacity, Anti/AntiX came to market and this issue was overlooked for the most part because of the tendency to use big objective high power optics that as a general rule of thumb use higher rings. My Tenacity pictured above was with a 50 mm objective Leica and low Vortex rings. The stock had a low comb that exacerbated the issue. As I said earlier, I am going forward using Manners LRH and EH1 stocks with their lightweight adjustable comb At 30oz as pictured with the 1" Manners pad, ARCA mount and adjustable comb, it's not a hard choice to make. NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17500919 08/10/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... Originally Posted by 257Bob Thanks Darryle, that's the same experience I had, I was going to order high rings but I got on the phone with Defiance and they said they would warranty the bolt and "make me a new one". I took apart the rifle yesterday, pulled the barrel and shipped the receiver off to Defiance, going with a "new" design and a 10 degree bolt. I really can't understand how this ever got out the door, I've mounted dozens of scopes on all sorts of rifles and never had a problem like this. I bought my action in January and when they looked up the serial #, they said "yeah, that's an older action". Anyway, they are going to make it right but it looks like I'll be set back a few months before I can use it. I will say their actions with pre-fit capabilities makes it super easy for a DIY rifle build. I bought the action, screwed on a Proof pre-fit, ran the head space gauges through it and was ready to go (or at least I thought until the scope arrived). Good to hear that Defiance is going to "make things right". That said, I have a anTi and had similar issues with scope/bolt handle clearance. I called Defiance and was told based upon the info I gave them that I had the 'old' design and that they would send me the longer bolt handle. Nothing was said at the time about a 'swept' handle. Now that the gun is together, Cerakoted, and shooting well, it's a little too late to add the swept handle, which IMHO is still not enough to solve the problem. FWIW, and in Defiance's defense, they are not the only Rem 700 clone maker that needs to take a closer look at their bolt handle design. Christensen rifles, - at least the ones I have experience with (Mesa and Ridgeline) could use some 're-engineering' of the bolt handle. Surely the engineers at the various clone makers must be aware of the ever increasing size of scope oculars, and thus the need for scope/bolt handle clearance w/o the use of rings that defeat any chance of a good cheek weld on the stock. I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance Darryle #17501089 08/10/22 Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 7,721 TN K Kaleb Campfire Outfitter Kaleb Campfire Outfitter K Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 7,721 TN Lots of stock there for 30 ounces! I’d like to try one.

Re: Defiance Darryle #17501136 08/10/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by Darryle Bob, I think the Tenacity, Anti/AntiX came to market and this issue was overlooked for the most part because of the tendency to use big objective high power optics that as a general rule of thumb use higher rings. My Tenacity pictured above was with a 50 mm objective Leica and low Vortex rings. The stock had a low comb that exacerbated the issue. As I said earlier, I am going forward using Manners LRH and EH1 stocks with their lightweight adjustable comb At 30oz as pictured with the 1" Manners pad, ARCA mount and adjustable comb, it's not a hard choice to make. That's a great looking stock, would like to see photos when rifle is completed.

Re: Defiance WiFowler #17501150 08/10/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by WiFowler Originally Posted by 257Bob Thanks Darryle, that's the same experience I had, I was going to order high rings but I got on the phone with Defiance and they said they would warranty the bolt and "make me a new one". I took apart the rifle yesterday, pulled the barrel and shipped the receiver off to Defiance, going with a "new" design and a 10 degree bolt. I really can't understand how this ever got out the door, I've mounted dozens of scopes on all sorts of rifles and never had a problem like this. I bought my action in January and when they looked up the serial #, they said "yeah, that's an older action". Anyway, they are going to make it right but it looks like I'll be set back a few months before I can use it. I will say their actions with pre-fit capabilities makes it super easy for a DIY rifle build. I bought the action, screwed on a Proof pre-fit, ran the head space gauges through it and was ready to go (or at least I thought until the scope arrived). Good to hear that Defiance is going to "make things right". That said, I have a anTi and had similar issues with scope/bolt handle clearance. I called Defiance and was told based upon the info I gave them that I had the 'old' design and that they would send me the longer bolt handle. Nothing was said at the time about a 'swept' handle. Now that the gun is together, Cerakoted, and shooting well, it's a little too late to add the swept handle, which IMHO is still not enough to solve the problem. FWIW, and in Defiance's defense, they are not the only Rem 700 clone maker that needs to take a closer look at their bolt handle design. Christensen rifles, - at least the ones I have experience with (Mesa and Ridgeline) could use some 're-engineering' of the bolt handle. Surely the engineers at the various clone makers must be aware of the ever increasing size of scope oculars, and thus the need for scope/bolt handle clearance w/o the use of rings that defeat any chance of a good cheek weld on the stock. I have the same scope, Leupold 5HD, on 5 CA Ridgelines, medium rings, no problems. Mine were all built in the past 3 years or less.

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17502091 08/10/22 Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas D Darryle Campfire Regular Darryle Campfire Regular D Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas Originally Posted by 257Bob That's a great looking stock, would like to see photos when rifle is completed. I ordered custom reamers from Manson, so we are 10-14 weeks out according to Leanne NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member

Re: Defiance Darryle #17560080 08/29/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... Originally Posted by Darryle Originally Posted by 257Bob Darryle, I have a Tenacity SA 308 and I'm having trouble mounting a scope, bolt handle hitting scope at ocular end, won't cycle, have you had any sort of similar problem? I have had this issue, eliminating it on future builds. I am ordering with the 10* handle and using the Manners stocks with their new lightweight adjustable comb. Short of sending the action back to Defiance for the upgraded new style bolt, you could try the swept tear drop bolt handle, it is .095" smaller in diameter and a considerable bit lighter Any pics of the swept handle installed? I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17560088 08/29/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... Originally Posted by 257Bob Thanks Darryle, that's the same experience I had, I was going to order high rings but I got on the phone with Defiance and they said they would warranty the bolt and "make me a new one". I took apart the rifle yesterday, pulled the barrel and shipped the receiver off to Defiance, going with a "new" design and a 10 degree bolt. I really can't understand how this ever got out the door, I've mounted dozens of scopes on all sorts of rifles and never had a problem like this. I bought my action in January and when they looked up the serial #, they said "yeah, that's an older action". Anyway, they are going to make it right but it looks like I'll be set back a few months before I can use it. I will say their actions with pre-fit capabilities makes it super easy for a DIY rifle build. I bought the action, screwed on a Proof pre-fit, ran the head space gauges through it and was ready to go (or at least I thought until the scope arrived). Did Defiance give you any idea of turn-around time? I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance WiFowler #17562399 08/30/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Defiance received the receiver/bolt on 8/15, I called yesterday and the new bolt was complete it was in shipping to be sent our for nitride, pretty fast turn around so far. Said to be looking for it in third week of September. So far, they have been very consistent with what they said would happen and currently being on track to meet that timeline, I hope it holds! I hope the 10 deg bolt solves my problems. Last edited by 257Bob; 08/30/22.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17563639 08/30/22 Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas D Darryle Campfire Regular Darryle Campfire Regular D Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas I sent the action back I just bought and I received it back within about 3 weeks with the 10* down sweep, still clears 3 different unmodified Manners LRH, EH1 and an EH1A even with the extra downward angle. I will never order another style of action, the 2 new Anti actions I ordered are coming with the 10* downward angle and the AntiX is coming with 5* downward angle. It's going in a Manners LRH with adjustable comb and will have a Swarovski Z6 56mm scope with the BRH reticle, so there will be plenty of clearance for the ocular? NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member

Re: Defiance Darryle #17568336 09/01/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida That's good to know! Are there any downsides to the 10*? You mentioned going with a 5* on your AntiX.

Re: Defiance Darryle #17568356 09/01/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by Darryle Bob, I think the Tenacity, Anti/AntiX came to market and this issue was overlooked for the most part because of the tendency to use big objective high power optics that as a general rule of thumb use higher rings. My Tenacity pictured above was with a 50 mm objective Leica and low Vortex rings. The stock had a low comb that exacerbated the issue. As I said earlier, I am going forward using Manners LRH and EH1 stocks with their lightweight adjustable comb At 30oz as pictured with the 1" Manners pad, ARCA mount and adjustable comb, it's not a hard choice to make. Now that you have me thinking about the stock, I'm hoping that won't be an issue, no clue. Stock is a McMillan Game Warden, https://mcmillanusa.com/stock/game-warden/

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17569665 09/01/22 Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas D Darryle Campfire Regular Darryle Campfire Regular D Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas Originally Posted by 257Bob That's good to know! Are there any downsides to the 10*? You mentioned going with a 5* on your AntiX. The Anti is going to have a 56mm objective in medium rings, didn't see the point of a 10* turn down, my current Anti has the original design and no issues with interference using low rings. APR Altitude 280 Ackley NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17587333 09/08/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Just ordered my second Tenacity on Tuesday, thinking this one will be chambered in 6mm CM, stainless #4 barrel from Preferred Barrels for a DIY build, thinking McMillan Game Scout and Hawkins M5 DBM with a Trigger Tech.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17587435 09/08/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Sounds VERY Seekins HAVAK First Gen-ish. Hint.................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17587603 09/08/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by Big Stick Sounds VERY Seekins HAVAK First Gen-ish. Hint.................. Stick, nice rig! My first Tenacity is back at Defiance, they warrantied my bolt handle, it hit my scope and could not cycle bolt. They are replacing the bolt with a 10* handle which they say should fix the problem but I have no idea what a "10*" bolt looks like, mostly concerned that it won't have trouble fitting the McMillan stock. I guess I'll have to wait and see when I get it and put the parts back together. I bought the first Tenacity in January of '22, they said it was an old model and has since been corrected. I think I'll mount the scope first to see if the handle clear before I finish the total assembly. I have a CA MPR in 6mm CM now that I put in a McMillan Game Scout, I really like the 6mm CM but will sell the CA when the Tenacity DIY is complete.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17587649 09/08/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Your proposed build sounds sweet and I LOVE said chambering,with (5) rifles so chambered running from a Barrett FC to a Ruger RAPER. Hint. I've yet to see a CA of any flavor worth a fhuqk and you'll undoubtedly be tickled with said blueprint,which will make the CA easy to forget. Hint. What are you gonna do for glass? I'm going Gen2 2-12x FFP Mil Lit Bitch,on the HAVAK. Hint........... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17587723 09/08/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by Big Stick Your proposed build sounds sweet and I LOVE said chambering,with (5) rifles so chambered running from a Barrett FC to a Ruger RAPER. Hint. I've yet to see a CA of any flavor worth a fhuqk and you'll undoubtedly be tickled with said blueprint,which will make the CA easy to forget. Hint. What are you gonna do for glass? I'm going Gen2 2-12x FFP Mil Lit Bitch,on the HAVAK. Hint........... To be fair, I've bought 5 CAs over the last couple of years and they all have been fine, quality as expected and shoot well enough, all wear McMillans. I've sold off two and will eventually sell off the others as I'd much rather have something that I build DIY with a Tenacity or similar (pre-fits only of course). I've got a few remaining Win 70s that I built a few years ago that will be available in a pinch so it's mostly about entertainment these days. The Tenacity's machining makes it easy for someone like me without a lather or necessary skills to cobble together some parts and build a rifle. The current 6mm wears a Leupold 5HD 3-15x44 so that's what's going on the new 6mm. I have a number of 5HDs but I haven't really twisted the turrets much to tell if they will track as hopeful. Looks like you have a few Arkens that need a place to roost. Last edited by 257Bob; 09/08/22.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17587805 09/08/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska I doubt I have more than (10) or so of the cited 4-16's and they are simply amazing mechanically. The reticle is killer too. Looking at the stack of unopened Mail,there might could be a few more. Hint............ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17587914 09/08/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida I'll have to give them a look!

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17588007 09/08/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska 35+ Mil's of erector,zero stop,close parallax,illumination,FFP and the reticle is SINISTER. Hint................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17588033 09/08/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida They do not appear readily available, where do you buy them?

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17588060 09/08/22 Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 17,865 A AKwolverine Campfire Ranger AKwolverine Campfire Ranger A Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 17,865 An ounce per mil? Lightweights they aren’t. Xtr sig 34s on those too stick?

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17588063 09/08/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska ARKEN Direct RINK They don't fhuqk around and deal directly(only). Hint. You want their rings too,which are fhuqking exceptional. Hint. Hell...I may have more than I can remember?!? Hint................... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17588435 09/08/22 Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 17,389 David_Walter Campfire Ranger David_Walter Campfire Ranger Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 17,389 Stick, Low or medium rings? “Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17588454 09/08/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Low's on a Turnbolt wearing a 1913 rail,will happily clear a PSS/VS/Sendero contour,with BC's on the glass. Hint. If you go lower base height,such as Burris Extreme 2-piecers,you'll lose the ability for flip-up's,on said contours and can barely squeeze a M24 without,as Old Glory illustrates. Hint. Everything pictured,is wearing their Low's. Hint............ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17589866 09/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by Big Stick ARKEN Direct RINK They don't fhuqk around and deal directly(only). Hint. You want their rings too,which are fhuqking exceptional. Hint. Hell...I may have more than I can remember?!? Hint................... I'd say you have a few...I'll have to try them out. No brakes or cans for your gear?

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17589878 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska I'd be VERY impressed,if someone hated Loudeners more than I. The last thing that interests me,is danglin' something off the muzzle,to change POA/POI and DOPE. Hint................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17589957 09/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida I didn't like them either, then I got an Area 419 Hellfire and I really like it, except have to take hearing protection with me while hunting...still working out the kinks on that one. Will have a can soon enough, as soon as the ATF sorts things out on their end, February 2022 and waiting... Last edited by 257Bob; 09/09/22.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17589995 09/09/22 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 17,240 Northern Louisiana JPro Campfire Ranger JPro Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 17,240 Northern Louisiana I've had three cans for maybe two months and there's no going back for me. Many existing rifles will stay the way they are, some will be chopped/threaded (where rifle balance will not be unduly upset), but most new additions going forward will be planned for suppressed use. Nice to mitigate recoil and blast at the same time, especially when shooting is an impromptu affair. There are decent 10-12oz .30cal cans out there now for $500-700. Now with even more aplomb

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590048 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska I'm more than a touch "comfy" with glass that tracks,modest case capacity and rather nice BC's,then incorporate The Chop to improve balance/handling. That as Daily Utility Platforms go. Hint. For Ugly Atmospherics,I'll add case capacity to the BC. Just put another together yesterday,with a .796 BC at 2925fps from a 24" Sporter and spec'd freebore. Hint. I'm always happy to give others the first shot and then bat clean up. Hint.(grin)................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance JPro #17590095 09/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by JPro I've had three cans for maybe two months and there's no going back for me. Many existing rifles will stay the way they are, some will be chopped/threaded (where rifle balance will not be unduly upset), but most new additions going forward will be planned for suppressed use. Nice to mitigate recoil and blast at the same time, especially when shooting is an impromptu affair. There are decent 10-12oz .30cal cans out there now for $500-700. I built a 308 with a Proof barrel at 20" just for the Harvester EVO that's been on the shelf since February, still waiting...

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17590101 09/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by Big Stick I'm more than a touch "comfy" with glass that tracks,modest case capacity and rather nice BC's,then incorporate The Chop to improve balance/handling. That as Daily Utility Platforms go. Hint. For Ugly Atmospherics,I'll add case capacity to the BC. Just put another together yesterday,with a .796 BC at 2925fps from a 24" Sporter and spec'd freebore. Hint. I'm always happy to give others the first shot and then bat clean up. Hint.(grin)................ 7mm RM, nice!

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590140 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska At 20",I'm purty sweet on 6BR. Hint. Fixing to mount another Barkin' Arken on another 2950fps .796 BC Flinger,here directly. Hint. With a 250yd zero,the reticle alone,only gets it to the 1500yd line...though SuperSonic to 2050yds+ in this morning's atmosphere. Hint................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590167 09/09/22 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 17,240 Northern Louisiana JPro Campfire Ranger JPro Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 17,240 Northern Louisiana What powder are you liking in those 7RM loads? Practically .800BC at nearly 3,000fps is beyond an impressive package for that size case. Now with even more aplomb

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590174 09/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Being tall with long arms, I prefer a 24" tube when possible, the 20" 308 with the 6" can may be a bit much but I'll give it a go. Have always had one 7mm RM or another in the safe. The present 7mm occupants include a Win 70 (1990s vintage) with a Shilen barrel at 24 in a Brown Precision stock (back when Brownells had a few) with a Zeiss Divari. I've had this rifle going on 25 years and has never failed me. Most recent addition is a CA Ridgeline in a McMillan Game Warden stock. Fine as factory rifles go but untested so far. That BR handled that bear nicely! Bullet?

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590197 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska JP, I'll grant ONE "guess". Hint. LAUGHING!............ 257, 105 A-Max Smooch and for all I know,that bullet is still going. Broke shoulders and exited at 200yds+. One and done,if only obviously. Hint. Tough to whoop a 700 L/A and their 3.690" COAL latitude. Hint................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590204 09/09/22 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 17,240 Northern Louisiana JPro Campfire Ranger JPro Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 17,240 Northern Louisiana Ah, the RL26. I've been liking it with heavies in 6.5CM and .243Win, but haven't yet burned through my RL22 stash for the 7mmRM. Nice combo there, for sure! Now with even more aplomb

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590364 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Not too shabby. Hint. LOVE them 180's Hint............... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590416 09/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida That's a great looking rig, I gotta get one of those scopes! Bipod attached with a pic rail or studs? Last edited by 257Bob; 09/09/22.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590447 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska I don't care for a 1913 bipod attachment and will always greedily take a sling stud up front. Preferences dictate flush cups on the stern,especially for Krunchentickers. I always remove the rearmost of tandem bow studs,so as to not induce a poor release under recoil...no matter the chambering. Hint............. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590470 09/09/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 10-4

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590708 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Case in point. Hint. I reckon I should hurry up and toss a Barkin' ARKEN on there too. Hint..................(grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590828 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Am thinking,it'll do. Hint. Prolly enough for today. Hint.................(grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590853 09/09/22 Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 587 T TexasBBQ Campfire Regular TexasBBQ Campfire Regular T Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 587 Stick, What split bases are those? Low rings work ok with that setup or are those mediums? Thanks, BBQ "Giving freaks a pass is the oldest tradition in Montana." Thomas McGuane

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590914 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Everything thus far pictured,is wearing ARKEN Low's. Hint. Haven't checked the Mail yet today. Hint................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590918 09/09/22 Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 587 T TexasBBQ Campfire Regular TexasBBQ Campfire Regular T Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 587 Got it, Thank you. "Giving freaks a pass is the oldest tradition in Montana." Thomas McGuane

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17590940 09/09/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska I rather like 'em and just ordered a few more. Hint.............. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17594917 09/11/22 Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,067 West Virginia R ring3 Campfire Regular ring3 Campfire Regular R Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,067 West Virginia Any love for the 6-24 Arken?? Went to order a 4-16 mil and what to my surprise, they’re out of stock. Must have been a run on them lately.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17595081 09/11/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska They are an optical and mechanical hit,wearing more fickle parallax,which are simply the bane of increased magnification. I personally MUCH prefer the '16x. Hint............... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17595098 09/11/22 Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,067 West Virginia R ring3 Campfire Regular ring3 Campfire Regular R Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,067 West Virginia Thanks. Looks like I’ll either do a 16x MOA or go 24x MIL while waiting on improved inventory.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17595123 09/11/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska I've not shot or got any in MOA/MOA and wouldn't. The 24x is at it's best,when a '16x ain't around and nothing is more intuitive than Mil's. They track,zero and repeat,which is a great portion in dot connecting. Hint. '24x MIL/MIL. Hint. Even yesterday early morning,with atmospherics on my side,I was shy of 16x on 1600yd steel with .796 BC's. Hint. Bumped into a pard,who was chasing his tail with (2) Reupolds,playing make an adjustment and "tap" "tap" "tap",only to watch the erector do something different than it's input. Mechanical sanctity,sure is soothin' and it's nice to zero in (2) shots,then go to come-ups,with back to back rifles. Hint.(grin) Long way of saying,the '24x gets the nod,due Miltitude. Hint................... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17595457 09/11/22 Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA B beretzs Campfire Ranger beretzs Campfire Ranger B Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA I’ve got a 6-24 since they were on sale and a buddies was pretty slick. Haven’t even broke the seal on mine but it looks pretty decent at first glance using his a bit. Semper Fi

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17595512 09/11/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Put it on something FUN to shoot,so you get to rattle some rounds through it. 223 CTR perhaps,if only for extrapolation? Hint................... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance Darryle #17595516 09/11/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... Originally Posted by Darryle I sent the action back I just bought and I received it back within about 3 weeks with the 10* down sweep, still clears 3 different unmodified Manners LRH, EH1 and an EH1A even with the extra downward angle. I will never order another style of action, the 2 new Anti actions I ordered are coming with the 10* downward angle and the AntiX is coming with 5* downward angle. It's going in a Manners LRH with adjustable comb and will have a Swarovski Z6 56mm scope with the BRH reticle, so there will be plenty of clearance for the ocular? Any pics of the installed 10* down sweep bolt handle on a rifle with a scope mounted? I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17596192 09/11/22 Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA B beretzs Campfire Ranger beretzs Campfire Ranger B Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA Originally Posted by Big Stick Put it on something FUN to shoot,so you get to rattle some rounds through it. 223 CTR perhaps,if only for extrapolation? Hint................... That’s the plan. I’ve got the 4-20 Helos on the CTR and I can’t see much moving that off it’s place. Might have to scrounge up something else to live on. Semper Fi

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17596213 09/11/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Such things come easily,with a 1913 interface and them side by each extrapolations,tend to reveal the most. Especially with something beloved,batting first. Hint...................(grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17596345 09/11/22 Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA B beretzs Campfire Ranger beretzs Campfire Ranger B Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA Originally Posted by Big Stick Such things come easily,with a 1913 interface and them side by each extrapolations,tend to reveal the most. Especially with something beloved,batting first. Hint...................(grin) True enough. Been messing with the thought of a 2nd CTR anyhow. Semper Fi

Re: Defiance WiFowler #17598316 09/12/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by WiFowler Originally Posted by Darryle I sent the action back I just bought and I received it back within about 3 weeks with the 10* down sweep, still clears 3 different unmodified Manners LRH, EH1 and an EH1A even with the extra downward angle. I will never order another style of action, the 2 new Anti actions I ordered are coming with the 10* downward angle and the AntiX is coming with 5* downward angle. It's going in a Manners LRH with adjustable comb and will have a Swarovski Z6 56mm scope with the BRH reticle, so there will be plenty of clearance for the ocular? Any pics of the installed 10* down sweep bolt handle on a rifle with a scope mounted? WiFowler, I don't have it back yet, work completed by Defiance but they had to send out for nitride so that adds a couple of weeks, should be back in a couple of weeks. Last edited by 257Bob; 09/12/22.

Re: Defiance beretzs #17598502 09/12/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Originally Posted by beretzs Originally Posted by Big Stick Such things come easily,with a 1913 interface and them side by each extrapolations,tend to reveal the most. Especially with something beloved,batting first. Hint...................(grin) True enough. Been messing with the thought of a 2nd CTR anyhow. I would NOT fhuqking Linger. HINT.................(grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17598508 09/12/22 Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA B beretzs Campfire Ranger beretzs Campfire Ranger B Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA I knew you'd be Johnny on the spot with that! Semper Fi

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17598643 09/12/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska You talked me into another,newest GrandBaby should be here in 3wks and may as well start him right,before he's even out of the egg. Hint.............. (grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17598645 09/12/22 Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA B beretzs Campfire Ranger beretzs Campfire Ranger B Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA Originally Posted by Big Stick You talked me into another,newest GrandBaby should be here in 3wks and may as well start him right,before he's even out of the egg. Hint.............. (grin) Congrats on the new arrival when he gets here, and yea, ain't no kid gonna suffer having a decent 223 to shoot a bunch. Semper Fi

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17598665 09/12/22 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,348 Paradise,Alaska Rut GrandBabies will be plum handy and rather a treat! The GOOD Old Days! Hint.................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Defiance Big Stick #17598721 09/12/22 Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA B beretzs Campfire Ranger beretzs Campfire Ranger B Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,297 Northeast USA Originally Posted by Big Stick Rut GrandBabies will be plum handy and rather a treat! The GOOD Old Days! Hint.................. Yes sir. Should be able to spend some good time with the boy! Semper Fi

Re: Defiance WiFowler #17611980 09/17/22 Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 17,865 A AKwolverine Campfire Ranger AKwolverine Campfire Ranger A Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 17,865 Originally Posted by WiFowler Originally Posted by Darryle I sent the action back I just bought and I received it back within about 3 weeks with the 10* down sweep, still clears 3 different unmodified Manners LRH, EH1 and an EH1A even with the extra downward angle. I will never order another style of action, the 2 new Anti actions I ordered are coming with the 10* downward angle and the AntiX is coming with 5* downward angle. It's going in a Manners LRH with adjustable comb and will have a Swarovski Z6 56mm scope with the BRH reticle, so there will be plenty of clearance for the ocular? Any pics of the installed 10* down sweep bolt handle on a rifle with a scope mounted? I’d like to see some as well.

Re: Defiance WiFowler #17613102 09/17/22 Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas D Darryle Campfire Regular Darryle Campfire Regular D Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,786 Fort Worth, Texas Originally Posted by WiFowler Originally Posted by Darryle I sent the action back I just bought and I received it back within about 3 weeks with the 10* down sweep, still clears 3 different unmodified Manners LRH, EH1 and an EH1A even with the extra downward angle. I will never order another style of action, the 2 new Anti actions I ordered are coming with the 10* downward angle and the AntiX is coming with 5* downward angle. It's going in a Manners LRH with adjustable comb and will have a Swarovski Z6 56mm scope with the BRH reticle, so there will be plenty of clearance for the ocular? Any pics of the installed 10* down sweep bolt handle on a rifle with a scope mounted? Nope, still waiting for reamers, 1 action and 1 stock to arrive. I have 2 fast twist Sendero carbon barrels, bottom metal, triggers and 1 action here at the moment. As soon as everything is buttoned up I will be happy to post pictures. NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17641601 09/27/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida I got the receiver back yesterday, looks great but can't really tell what's different at this point, the rings I have don't fit the receiver even though I'm told they should so ordering another set this am and will hopefully see if the bolt clears as it should.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17660537 10/03/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida I attempted to mount the Leupold 5HD 3-15x44 30mm in Talley Medium lightweight rings on the recently modified and returned Tenacity receiver, the bolt (modified to 10 deg) cycles but will still hit the scope if you cycle without caution. I decided to go with high rings hoping to clear the scope all together. As my previous post stated, I bought the receiver in January of this year and Defiance said it was an old bolt design and they warrantied a new bolt at no expense and about five weeks. Defiance I must say has been very good to work with. I purchased and received a newly minted Tenacity and I mounted the same scope with the medium rings and the bolt would not cycle, I don't think high rings would help this one. It come with a pic rail and it looks like I will have to use the rail and pic rings on my next build, we'll see.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17661044 10/03/22 Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 J JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter J Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 It's the biggest fault I've found with Defiance actions. Rail with low (.82 or .75) 30mm rings work for me as long as the scope's eyepiece isn't to large. I've got extra Hawkin's long range hybrid rings for both long and short Defiance actions. They are just a touch higher than a rail with low rings. If you'd like to try them I'll send them to you.

Re: Defiance JCMCUBIC #17661072 10/03/22 Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,464 jennings lodge, oregon Oregonmuley Campfire Tracker Oregonmuley Campfire Tracker Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,464 jennings lodge, oregon Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC It's the biggest fault I've found with Defiance actions. Rail with low (.82 or .75) 30mm rings work for me as long as the scope's eyepiece isn't to large. I've got extra Hawkin's long range hybrid rings for both long and short Defiance actions. They are just a touch higher than a rail with low rings. If you'd like to try them I'll send them to you. I think I have posted this before but have any of you guys tried the Rebel actions?? I know the newer AnTi's are really a nice action and the Tenacity has been great but the Rebel spec'd out right might work as far as the bolt handle/scope mounting issues. This is a Rebel with the Modified bolt handle to fit a Remington inlet stock. The scope in the picture is a S&B PM II 10x42 and the rings/bases are Talley lows. The S&B doesn't have a huge back bell but its plenty big and even with the Butler Creeks I could clear the handle, not by much but it worked. Just a thought if anyone has any future builds in the works the Rebel is worth a look IMHO. "Rather hunt Mule deer than anything else" "Team 7MM-08"

Re: Defiance Oregonmuley #17661094 10/03/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida I don't want to be too hard on Defiance as they have been great to work with but I really don't understand how they can design a bolt handle that won't work with a common scope, they tell me the https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018704156?pid=381965 has a large ocular end but I have five of these on Christensen Arms actions (one Model 70) and never had a problem. I had to completely disassemble the rifle to send it back and it's still a problem and the new action is worse. I'll use the pic rail on project #2 but it's not my first choice. It does have me pondering other options for my next DIY/pre-fit project (7mm PRC) but I have some time to settle that one.

Re: Defiance JCMCUBIC #17661098 10/03/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC It's the biggest fault I've found with Defiance actions. Rail with low (.82 or .75) 30mm rings work for me as long as the scope's eyepiece isn't to large. I've got extra Hawkin's long range hybrid rings for both long and short Defiance actions. They are just a touch higher than a rail with low rings. If you'd like to try them I'll send them to you. I appreciate the kind offer, I'm going to sit on project #2 for a bit until I get this one sorted, new rings from Red Hawk Rifles coming in the mail today.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17663665 10/04/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Well, the Talley high rings arrived yesterday, mounted the scope and the bolt handle clear by about at 1/8" which should be fine. The scope objective sits about 3/8" over the carbon barrel which is not ideal but it will have to do. Next step, to the range!

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17665254 10/04/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... [quote=257Bob]I don't want to be too hard on Defiance as they have been great to work with but I really don't understand how they can design a bolt handle that won't work with a common scope, they tell me the https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018704156?pid=381965 has a large ocular end but I have five of these on Christensen Arms actions (one Model 70) and never had a problem. I had to completely disassemble the rifle to send it back and it's still a problem and the new action is worse. I'll use the pic rail on project #2 but it's not my first choice. It does have me pondering other options for my next DIY/pre-fit project (7mm PRC) but I have some time to settle that one.[/quote Given any thought to a Tikka. Don't get me wrong, Defiance is a great action, albeit bolt handle clearance issues. 60* bolt lift, voids all bolt handle clean e issues. I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17667134 10/05/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida WiFowler, I have sold more rifles than I currently own, I was an avid Winchester 70 collector in the 90s when they went back to CRF, since then I've sold off most of my collection and put the funds into new and interesting projects. I still have a safe full of rifles ready to hunt so these days I tinker simply for entertainment. I've had many rifles rebarreled and restocked by smiths but I really have not interest in that these days as the pre-fit barrels and actions are generally available so the opportunities exceed my willingness to spend money on them. This project was my first DIY where I sourced all of the parts and tools (action wrench, headspace gauges, barrel vise, etc) and enjoyed putting it all together, really quite simple after watching many videos on the subject. Going the conventional route with lather and chamber reamer is simply out of my realm. The headspace checked out fine, go-gauge chambered as it should, no-go did not, about half a handle down before it stopped. Time on the range this weekend will tell if it will shoot. I don't see myself buying any factory rifles in the future but if I wanted an off the rack shooter, I'd give Tikka a hard look. Last edited by 257Bob; 10/05/22.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17667602 10/05/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... 257Bob, totally understand. Like you, I've bought and sold more guns than I care to think of - and some I wished I'd never parted with - and still have multiple safes full. That being said, I too have built my fair share. Whether it was threading, chambering, etc, myself on my lathe, farming it out to a smith, or of late, a few prefits. FWIW, the days following Hornady's 'day in the limelight' (aka 'official' release date of the 7 PRC - Oct 26) I'd hazard a guess that any number of barrel manufacturers' will be releasing pre-fit barrels. I just have that 'gut' feeling. WIth that in mind, don't give up hope of a 7mm PRC pre-fit. I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17667619 10/05/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Preferred Barrels has the 7mm PRC option now https://preferredbarrelblanks.com/p...y-ruckus-anti-and-anti-x-1-061x16px-950/ I have a short action Tenacity that I just bought so I'm going to build a 6mm CM to replace the one I'm selling then start to looking for a receiver for the PRC.

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17667688 10/05/22 Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... WiFowler Campfire Tracker WiFowler Campfire Tracker Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,834 To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ... Gotcha. My 7 PRC should ready in a couple of weeks if all goes well. I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.

Re: Defiance WiFowler #17670249 10/06/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Looking forward to seeing photos of that, mine will be a bit delayed but hopefully ammo will be available by the time it's built. I do handload but my gear is packed away due to a recent move and not in a hurry to set it up.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17670274 10/06/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/17670269/defiance-308

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17682610 10/10/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Got out to the range at hunting camp, poor rifle rest but has potential. Bought a box of the cheapest ammo I could find, Federal 150 gr as I wanted to sight it in to hunt hogs for the evening but didn't want to shoot a bunch of ammo until I got the suppresser. Fired it 11 times, this is shots 9-11. Stock was drop in, no bedding, I think it has some potential with a little tweaking.

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17682632 10/10/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Custom Rifle and Wildcat (really, she's an outdoor cat that showed up as a kitten and stayed).

Re: Defiance 257Bob #17697398 10/14/22 Joined: Feb 2020 Posts: 211 Alaska U UpTop Campfire Member UpTop Campfire Member U Joined: Feb 2020 Posts: 211 Alaska Originally Posted by 257Bob Custom Rifle and Wildcat (really, she's an outdoor cat that showed up as a kitten and stayed). Sweet setup! Side note, cat looks posessed by the devil. lol

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17706071 10/17/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Yep, cat not liking interruption, she's a good mouser though...

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17706095 10/17/22 Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 11,322 Middle/West Tennessee P pullit Campfire Outfitter pullit Campfire Outfitter P Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 11,322 Middle/West Tennessee Cat does look mean, maybe the mice just give up once they see her I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17706099 10/17/22 Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 11,322 Middle/West Tennessee P pullit Campfire Outfitter pullit Campfire Outfitter P Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 11,322 Middle/West Tennessee Forgot, nice looking rifle Last edited by pullit; 10/17/22. I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17709264 10/18/22 Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida 257Bob Campfire Tracker 257Bob Campfire Tracker Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,816 Tallahassee, Florida Added a bipod...

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17709457 10/18/22 Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 J JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter JCMCUBIC Campfire Outfitter J Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,758 Cat doesn't look that mean.....maybe a little defiant.....

Re: Defiance RoyalKnight #17709541 10/18/22 Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 17,865 A AKwolverine Campfire Ranger AKwolverine Campfire Ranger A Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 17,865 (Groan!)