Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 450 G&A Short

RC,

My starting point is a Win M-70 Classic very similar to your top photo, except it’s a straight comb SG, which I prefer for both aesthetic and functional reasons. I don’t plan on a scope and plan on a 23” barrel - my personal idiosyncrasy on my rifles. So it looks like a Douglas #5 contour may well do the trick.

I have the RUM follower & 375 H&H Mag spring OTW now. The rear Mag block seems an easy removal and may just replace the bolt stop with a 375 H&H bolt stop - we’ll see when I get to that. I’ll need to look into the RUM windowed Mag box and the geometry of a factory RUM box in a current rifle, especially the feed rails. Haven’t tested the 404J in that rifle yet for feeding - next step.

I will probably add a second cross bolt to the stock and a Pachmayr Decelerator or Limbsaver pad. After the barrel is installed, I’ll look at the weight and balance and decide whether a bit of lead might be needed to achieve target weight. Placement will depend on the balance at that point.

Thanks for the details on the chambers and reamers. I’m now convinced that starting out with a chambered 458 Lott barrel is the most straight forward way to go, using just the Manson 460 G&A finishing reamer. I need to look at the feasibility of using some of the dies I currently have (404J, 450 Rigby) vs a 460 G&A custom body die. Will decide this once I have some fired cases from the new chamber.

This project is getting to be more interesting all the time. Hopefully will get a chance to try out the finished product in 2024. The conundrum will be whether to use the 460 G&A in the field as primary with the 450 Rigby as backup or the reverse. Testing will tell.

Now if you were to build a short, light .450 using a standard length action, 22" barrel and either the .450 Howell or .450 G & A Short, you could use the .450 Rigby in the open areas and the shorter, lighter, better handling rifle in the thick brush or as a back-up.

Interesting thought. Although I’m not as experienced as an elephant hunter as others on these forums, I’ve done a few hunts. I haven’t found a place yet where a hunter could get a good shot at an elephant that an inch of barrel length would prevent it.

If it’s that thick the chances of not stumbling on an elephant on the way into the herd to get a good look are pretty slim. Ran into just such a situation a couple of weeks ago. More likely hunting small bull herds. If the rifle is well balanced carrying a 10-10 1/2 lb rifle over the shoulder while walking hasn’t become an issue so far.

This may be an issue in other places I haven’t been to yet and probably won’t. YMMV

Yup, 23" barrel is as short and handy as I like on a .458 bolt action.
Anyone not a dwarf should do well with 23" barrel.
My ancestors survived running around with 44" barrels.
You want to do more poking than swinging when you get into the brush.

#5 sporter contour will work great on any .458 bolt action rifle, ideal.
#4 sporter contour and 23" barrel is minimum, if a featherweight is the goal, requires 2-pound stock.

Yup, you can easily add a pound with well-balanced lead and epoxy and/or mercury tubes
in butt and forearm of stock.
Phil Shoemaker made his Old Ugly gain a pound by doing that.

Until you get proper dies, if you can shorten a .450 Rigby die by about 0.060" ground off at the base
that would be a dandy neck sizer,
since the .450 Rigby has a 0.500"-long neck and the 460 G&A has a .458"-long neck,
and the Neck-1 location at shoulder juncture would line up pretty easily.

2.3998" - 2.3415" = 0.0583" (see cartridge drawings below, brass maximums)
Grind off base of die and adjust die upward to fine tune jam fit in chamber.

Thus, neck-sizing of brass, after fire forming,
using a reversed bullet loaded with base into the rifling, to blow out the 404 shoulder to 460 G&A.

Grinding that tiny amount off the base of your .450 Rigby FL die won't hurt it for future use, if you have a headspace gage for the .450 Rigby.
Obviously nicer to have a spare to do the shortening on, at base of die.





And for redeeming social value, the .450 Howell is very like the .450 G&A Short Magnum with sharper shoulder:



And the .450 Dakota: Thicker in neck wall and has wider shoulder and narrower base than the .450 Rigby.
The .450 Dakota is more like a 460 WBY with belt turned off and angulated shoulder.
At the time it was designed, before the .450 Rigby, .416 Rigby brass was rare as hen's teeth,
but 460 WBY brass was easy to come by:

Excellent points, RC. I’ve used the 460 Wby - 6% algorithm for equivalent 450 Rigby Rimless loads. That’s 100-104 gns RL-17 behind a 500 gn Barnes Banded Solid or 500 gun CEB BBW #13 bullets. IME Barnes Banded Solid or CEB BBW #13 bullets produce very similar MVs at equal COAL and powder charges.

I’ll consider shortening my 450 Rigby FL sizing die.

Just removed the magazine spacer in the Win M-70 today and confirmed the 460 G&A dummy at COAL 3.6” COAL fits well with a 375 H&H follower. We’ll see how the RUM follower fits when it gets here.

Yes, and you will have a headspace gage for the .460 G&A.
Use that in your shortened .450 Rigby die to set the headspace when neck-sizing your fire-formed .460 G&A brass.
Foolproof.
I have done such with a .264/.375 Ruger using a Manson headspace gage for my pet wildcat,
called the .264 Ripmore or 6.5 Ripmoor depending on company present.

If you get the .375 H&H boltstop/ejector in there, it will be timed to eject 3.6" loaded cartridges,
loaded ammo bullet nose will clear,
you will not have to do anything to shorten the rear bridge or lengthen the ejection port.

If you find a source for .375 H&H M-70 boltstop/ejector, let me know.
I could find a use for some of those.
Last time I filed and stoned one myself, to get a .270 WCF M70 Classic action to eject .400 Whelen 3.6" ammo properly.
File a little, re-install, try ... uninstall, file, install, try ... uninstall, file, try ... Success !
I'd rather buy them ready-made too !

RC,

Midwest Gun Works is where I found the Win M-70 CRF RUM mag follower & 375 H&H length ejector and bolt stop. Have them on the workbench but haven’t installed them yet.

Doing some work on the RSM 450 Rigby which needs to be finished before tackling the 460 G&A project full time.

Thanks for that, ordered a couple of spares for future use:



Appears they are sold out of this, but you can cut windows in the top of your box if you need more space:



I see they still have these:



And surely your spring is like this:



Beware of this abomination:

Unfortunately my mag spring is the abominable space killer!! Haven’t been able to locate a suitable full length replacement yet so I’ll need to scrounge through my stuff and see what I find. So far the closest alternative may be a magnum Mauser spring but I’ll need to look at dimensions before deciding.

Assembled the donor action with the RUM follower, mag box with the rear block removed and can fit 3 404J-cased dummies - including one with a 0.458” CEB BBW #13 500 gn bullet. They fit and feed though not smoothly yet because of the stock bolt stop. The bolt face and extractor control the case normally, once the cartridge rises. We’ll see how it works with the bolt stop replaced with the 375 H&H part. Probably will need some tweaking of the feed ramp eventually.

Small steps along the way but headed generally in the right direction, it seems.

I know you said at the beginning that you are looking for an intermediate between the 458WM and the 450 Rigby, but you didn't say why. I found this thread very interesting and was just wondering if you are doing this purely for the experience/entertainment or if it will fill a perceived role that the others do not. I am a long-time fan of the 460G&A, but have recently come to appreciate the 458WM even more, and am always trying to learn more.

SLGPT,

The purpose of the rifle I'm building is for hunting DG. I have used a 500 NE 3" in this role, but decided to give up DRs and use a bolt rifle instead, as I have more experience with those. That was the purpose of the Ruger RSM 450 Rigby but ran into a last minute problem and used a 404 Jeffery instead for this year's hunt.

The 404 Jeffery did very well, but I still prefer a 45 caliber DGR. Hence the idea of the G&A. As is the case with most wildcatting plans, there's no free lunch, so it's likely I'll wind up with a 10 1/2 pound rifle to make the recoil reasonable for follow up shots. In the end it's likely the only advantage to the 460 G&A will be the slightly shorter Winchester LA compared to the RSM.

Maybe more rifle loony flimsy thinking, but there it is. I'm hoping the rifle will see use in the field in 2024.

I certainly understand rifle loony thinking! I too like the slightly shorter action aspect.

What happened to the 450Rigby, if you don't mind me asking?

Inconsistent feeding. On its way to repair.

Thank you. Would love to see pics if/when able.

At the stage of getting things together. Spoke with Douglas Barrels today. They will fit a 5A 23” barrel to my Win M-70 action and use my Manson 460 G&A reamer - when it’s ready - to chamber the barrel. Big step forward.

Will need to wait for the barreled action to return before deciding about the current SG stock vs something different. All dependent on the barrel taper.

Your walnut will work fine, barrel channel sanded and bedded with epoxy.
So will a Bell & Carlson "Medalist" type stock.
You will likely want a secondary recoil lug on the barrel with walnut.
No need for that with the B&C stock having full bedding block.
B&C will handle a No. 5 Sporter.
I have sanded them out to fit No. 6 sporter from Pac-Nor,
and even cut into the aluminum endoskeleton in the forend to bed a secondary recoil lug.
Ditto a McMillan claimed to be good for up to No. 5 sporter,
I have gone even bigger-barreled with McMillan.

I intend to push the walnut option with a slim forend and any weight needed to hit target added in lead at buttstock and possibly forend to maintain balance. However I'll consider a synthetic stock if the current SG stock channel modification doesn't work.

I've looked at the Bansner website as I have a couple of the old stocks and they work well. I've not yet seriously inquired about these but will consider this option if needed. Based on the specs I've seen so far, added weight would be needed.

I'm aiming for a classical rifle with CM blued barrel and walnut stock as it seems most suited for its purpose - pursuit of DG. After all as JOC said, this is all about fun and games, at least when reliable DGRs are involved.

I noted how the barrel recoilo lug was added on my 404 J and will plan for that option on this rifle. High strength silver solder should work.

As usual in the wildcat game, it's been interesting pushing this project forward. I received the 460G&A reamer and headspace gauge from Dave Manson yesterday. Feels like a big step forward.

I spoke with a well known GS today who specializes in building working professional DGRs on Win M-70 Classic actions. He's agreed to take on the task of turning a Win M-70 Classic SG which left the factory as a 300 WM into a 460 G&A properly reliable DGR. Another great step forward! Estimated build time 4-6 months, so in time for a summer Zim hunt. I've witnessed one of these unfailingly reliable rifles in 458 Win Mag in the hands of my Zim PH on my last 2 hunts.

Ordered a Douglas #5 sporter contour finished, turned, polished 0.458" 1:14" twist barrel today. I was told 4-6 weeks delivery. Threading, chambering and bluing will be done by the GS building the rifle.

The next challenge is finding a sizing die in 460G&A. Both RCBS and Redding told me today they are out of the custom die wildcat business til at least next year. Timing won't work. I've got calls out to a couple of smaller outfits which will probably make the dies - fingers crossed over the last couple of days until I get a commitment on the dies. I didn't anticipate this would be the most challenging step, but it's beginning to seem so.

Unless the dies don't work out, I am now starting to believe that the 460G&A will become a reality and will be in the gun case on the way to Bulawayo next summer.

BTW the build, despite the title, is a 460G&A.

Wildcatter264, have you looked at CH4D for your .460 G&A dies?

elkhunternm

Spoke with them yesterday. They have 2 sets in stock but they couldn't tell if they are specked to the Manson reamer I have. The Clymer version is a bit different so I sent them the spec diagram today and waiting for a response. If they needed to make it from scratch their lead time is 18-24 months, with a 37 page backlog of orders! Obviously they are not seriously in the game.

I've also inquired of Whidden Arms in GA - don't know their work or wait times, waiting for a response.

As a backup I spoke to the Manson's shop today and they can make me a resizer reamer based on the chambering reamer and I can have a blank die reamed to 460G&A. I know I have a die blank somewhere in the shop intended for a 35/284 but will probably use it for this project instead.

I've resolved I'm going to see this through to the end & use it in the summer.

I'm convinced that as big a hammer my 404J has proven to be, a 458 caliber bullet at 2350 is a bigger hammer!!

Cheers!!