24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,241
K
KSMITH Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
K
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,241
I was perusing another forum and most of the time, it is a bunch of Google masters posting irrelevant crap about everything gun related. The most recent thing I have read, and it seems like bullshcitt to me, is 22 rimfire tumbling or losing accuracy as they transition from Super sonic to sub sonic. These guys are recommending shooting subs for accuracy at long distance because of this transition. I have shot a metric [bleep] ton of 22 in my life and never had any issue whatsoever due to sonic to sub transition. In fact, I have never even heard of it much less worried about it. So what say the campfire experts?


-Piss into the wind.
BP-B2

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,526
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,526
Never heard of it causing “tumbling”, but the effect is real, and not just with .22s. If you read about real long-range shooting with CFs, you’ll find that keeping velocity supersonic is important to those guys too.


What fresh Hell is this?
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,664
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,664
Those that seriously pursue accuracy with our lowly 22's know their stuff and like ammo that starts out at around 1,100 fps. That transonic turbulence realm is a problem. Long range black powder centerfire folks have issues too as they have to be in the 13 to 1,400 fps to do that thousand-yard thing with 500+ grain slugs.

Last edited by 1minute; 07/29/22.

1Minute
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 406
2
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
2
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 406
The effect is real. Shoot super sonic and subsonic groups at 200yd from the same rifle.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,241
K
KSMITH Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
K
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,241
Has physics changed that much on the effect of transition on 22cal between 1990 and 2022? I think not. Although someone could probably redesign the .22 projectile to improve BC.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a229713.pdf

5. The nonlinear Magnus moment acting on caliber .22 match bullets at transonic and subsonic speeds causes a slow-arm limit cycle yaw of approximately 1.8 degrees. The slow arm grows to the limit cycle value at about 50 metres range, and the limit cycle persists out to 100 metres range. The limit cycle yaw adds approximately 2 percent to the zero-yaw drag, but has an insignificant effect on accuracy, retained velocity and wind sensitivity.


-Piss into the wind.
IC B2

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,180
M
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
M
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,180


"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867

( . Y . )
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,970
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,970
You can read all the articles you want but it doesn't disprove what all of the bench rest shooters in any national event know to be a fact. I guarantee if you go to a bench rest event- where a few thousandth's of an inch can mean winning or losing a match - they will be shooting subsonic ammo - every last one of them. And 22 rimfire ammo is especially sensitive to it due to the poor ballistic shape of most 22 bullets.

I guess there is one answer to this problem- shoot hypervelocity ammo that doesn't drop below the sonic barrier before it reaches the target. The problem is no one loads accurate or competitive hypervelocity ammo..


Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability.
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,167
B
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,167
High velocity .22 LR's start out in the transonic zone so any accuracy loss due to transonic turbulence would take place between the muzzle and about 60 yards.

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,909
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,909
Originally Posted by KSMITH
I was perusing another forum and most of the time, it is a bunch of Google masters posting irrelevant crap about everything gun related. The most recent thing I have read, and it seems like bullshcitt to me, is 22 rimfire tumbling or losing accuracy as they transition from Super sonic to sub sonic. These guys are recommending shooting subs for accuracy at long distance because of this transition. I have shot a metric [bleep] ton of 22 in my life and never had any issue whatsoever due to sonic to sub transition. In fact, I have never even heard of it much less worried about it. So what say the campfire experts?

It's a thing. All competitive .22 shooters use sub-sonic ammo.

For normal hunting accuracy, you wouldn't notice.

Last edited by mrmarklin; 07/29/22.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Originally Posted by KSMITH
I was perusing another forum and most of the time, it is a bunch of Google masters posting irrelevant crap about everything gun related. The most recent thing I have read, and it seems like bullshcitt highly informed perspectives to me, is 22 rimfire tumbling or losing accuracy as they transition from Super sonic to sub sonic. These guys are recommending shooting subs for accuracy at long distance because of this transition. I have shot a metric [bleep] ton of 22 in my life and never had any issue whatsoever due to sonic to sub transition. In fact, I have never even heard of it much less worried about it. So what say the campfire experts?

Fixed that for ya. Thank me later.

Exterior ballistics is rather complicated and a wise man will not leap to conclusions without studying it a bit. You might enjoy the linked book below, but a note of caution. It was crafted by a highly respected expert for graduate level studies.

https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Exterior-Ballistics-Robert-McCoy/dp/0764338250


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


IC B3

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,942
M
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
M
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,942
There are a lot of variables, and advantages can change with distance, and goals.

Here's an interesting 300-yard test comparing 22LR subsonic to the CCi Velocitor.


Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,167
B
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,167
I've shot thousands of high velocity .22 LR bullets at paper targets from 25, 50, 75, 100, 125 and 150 yards and several points in between {my back yard range has target frames set at 35, 45 and 65 yards presently}. I've never seen any indication of tumbling or instability and like I said before, if you were going to ,you'd see it within the first 60 yards or so and it would show in the form of oblong or out of round holes on paper.

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,970
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,970
This has been discussed numerous times on several sites I visit and it has been proven that the issue exists. However, how much it actually effects your accuracy is a matter of never ending debate. For guys who shoot for extreme accuracy, any amount that can be accounted for is too much and shooting sub sonic eliminates at least one variable. As far as HV ammo I used to shoot a lot of Winchester Power Points and other ammo in that velocity realm - approx. 1400 fps- and had good results with it for hunting ammo and on paper it was very good, but not what I would call target ammo. Since they moved the manufacture of Win Power Points from Australia to the US, the accuracy isn't what it used to be.

Unless you are a bench rest shooter this may or may not effect you which is why so many guys who say they have shot a ton of .22 ammo in their lifetime call BS on this claim. For hunting accuracy you can probably be minute of squirrel head with most ammo still...


Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability.
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,167
B
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,167
No doubt match ammunition is generally more accurate than high velocity hunting ammo, {I shot competitively myself for years and yea, I used match ammo.} but that does not mean high velocity ammo is going to tumble or even become grossly unstable while going transonic. It also can be quite accurate at extended ranges long after going subsonic as the video posted by MontanaMarine clearly shows.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 178
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 178
The transonic barrier is also a factor in why Foster type shotgun slugs REALLY scatter past 50-60 yards.


Keepin my back green and my powder dry.
The LORD bless and keep you
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,988
G
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,988
As stated, if in a shoulder to shoulder match, especially benchrest, when the difference between 1st place and "also ran" is measured in 1/10's of an inch, a wise man stays sub-sonic from the get-go or starts out super-sonic and guarantees it stays that way the whole way to the target (and good luck finding HV ammo that shoots in that league). In situations like that, one swallows one's gut and springs for the $15-20/box stuff. The matches I attend see everybody shooting high end low-vel match stuff. Everybody.

The major suppliers of Eley Tenex, such as Killough's, publish the lot numbers they have available and exact velocity (supplied by Eley) obtained by those specific lots. Speed numbers vary, but fall into a very narrow band of between 1065 and 1080 fps typically. A lot of .22 BR shooters are very fanatical about such things. I shoot in single shot/Schutzen matches where .22RF competition is conducted at 100 yards, both offhand and benchrest, group size and score - and I'm here to tell you that putting ten into the 3/4" 10-ring is no mean feat, especially if there's even the slightest breeze. (The best I ever did was a 249-9C that copped 1st place that day - with a BSA Martini International + Eley Tenex. I have yet to witness a perfect score of 250 although a few such scores pop up around the country during a year.)


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,942
M
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
M
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,942
I can see where the subsonic has the advantage at rimfire BR distances, 50-200 yards or so??

Now we have long range steel shooting where the distances go much further. I can see where the faster 40gr ammo can have an edge in atmo at those distances.

I've shot plenty of federal bulk 36gr out to 400 yards or so plinking at rocks, pinecones, etc. It definitely doesn't tumble. Maybe elevation is a factor too. What is stable at 4000', may not be stable down by the sea.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,241
K
KSMITH Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
K
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,241
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
There are a lot of variables, and advantages can change with distance, and goals.

Here's an interesting 300-yard test comparing 22LR subsonic to the CCi Velocitor.


This is what I figured. I think it can safely be said, that this transonic theory really doesn't come into play. Maybe if you were shooting inside to negate any and all wind at 50yds the subs may shine. Honestly, I am unconvinced about this theory and if there is some minuscule difference in accuracy, it ain't going to matter in my life.

I have friends at Aberdeen and Crane and will reach out to see if they know of any tests and evaluations done on this theory.


-Piss into the wind.
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,260
G
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,260
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
There are a lot of variables, and advantages can change with distance, and goals.

Here's an interesting 300-yard test comparing 22LR subsonic to the CCi Velocitor.



I showed the this video to a friend that gave me $h!t because I shoot (sighted in) Velocitors in my Savage-Anschutz. Makes lobbing more fun.


Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,586
bcp Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,586
Originally Posted by KSMITH
Has physics changed that much on the effect of transition on 22cal between 1990 and 2022? I think not. Although someone could probably redesign the .22 projectile to improve BC.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a229713.pdf

5. The nonlinear Magnus moment acting on caliber .22 match bullets at transonic and subsonic speeds causes a slow-arm limit cycle yaw of approximately 1.8 degrees. The slow arm grows to the limit cycle value at about 50 metres range, and the limit cycle persists out to 100 metres range. The limit cycle yaw adds approximately 2 percent to the zero-yaw drag, but has an insignificant effect on accuracy, retained velocity and wind sensitivity.

"...but has an insignificant effect on accuracy..."

That's the key word. I does effect accuracy, but is it insignificant for 40 yd rabbit hunting, or for 200 yd target shooting?

Bruce

Last edited by bcp; 07/30/22.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
167 members (444Matt, 32_20fan, 358WCF, 257_X_50, 1minute, 300_savage, 24 invisible), 1,995 guests, and 958 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,726
Posts18,400,648
Members73,822
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.102s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 0.9006 MB (Peak: 1.0566 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 06:31:35 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS