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Recently put together a .358 Norma with parts from a few rifles. The barrel is an unknown maker but was originally a .35 Whelen on a MRC 1999 action in a fully floated HS precision stock. In that configuration it shot very well for my buddy that I bought it off of. I was present during load development with the 225 TSX and it was easily MOA or better.

I robbed the barrel and put it on a Model 70 Classic action and used a wood stock from another model 70 Classic. The stock has been pillar and glass bedded to this barreled action. It was also free floated but does not have much clearance. If I grab the end of the stock it easily makes contact with the barrel.

Initial load work up showed lots of vertical stringing with very little horizontal dispersion. A business card jammed between the barrel and the stock settled it right down to between 1 and 1.5 MOA but the card would shift positions between shots. 2 Cards would really send the POI high and groups opened up to about 2 MOA.

I tried several thickness and positions of electrical tape wrapped on the barrel. Like the two cards, heavy layers of tape changed POI significantly (as much as 4-5"). The vertical stringing pretty well disappeared but still had plenty of 2+ MOA groups.

I decided to work more methodically and used just enough tape (three wraps) to almost make full contact with the end of the stock but there was still some play when I grabbed the end of the stock. Dispersion was about 2"+ horizontal and a little over 1" vertical.

Two more wraps gave me solid contact with the stock. It was like turning on an accuracy light switch...

The next four went into .877", the next three with a full cool went .751", the next three with a full cool went 1.045". Average of ten shots was .891" with pretty even dispersion. If I were to overlay all three groups I estimate it would be around 1.25 - 1.5 MOA with 9 of the ten MOA or better. Plenty accurate for anything I plan to point it at.

All shooting was prone off the same bipod and rear bag for consistency.

Between the business card and the tape experiment it is obvious to me this gun will shoot with a little forend pressure. My only concern with adding pressue is potential POI shifts, particularly with a wood stock. I also know the barrel used to shoot well in a stiff composite that was fully free-floated.

My questions are:

Keep the tape and shoot as is?

Have my stock guy permanently bed a "speed bump"?

Get aggressive with the stock and hog it out enough to where it won't make contact even if it flexes?


I am open to all three options just curious what the campfire consensus is.

Thanks

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“Free floating” a barrel wasn’t always a “thing”, I’ve been told.

Close to 40 years ago, First rifle I bedded was a model 700 in 22-250 and the gunsmith where I worked instructed me to bed the full length of the stock

Shot great

Recently I had a lightweight rifle built and had a tough time getting it to shoot as well as I liked. Even re-barreled it twice with not any better luck. Barrel was floated

Decided to do something similar to what you did by jamming some cardboard between the barrel and channel. Helped a lot.

Took it back to the shop and they bedded the last 4” of the fore end and it solved the problem. Gunsmith said free floating a barrel is just something people want because they’ve been told its the only way to do it.

If it shoots, just bed it like that


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#3, more barrel clearance. This can be hard to accomplish if you have a plastic tip on the stock. The tip on a Rem CDL is hollow, so you can only take so much off!

I like a lot of clearance with wooden stock tips, especially those with tapered fore ends. Those have a lot of flex. If you can't get the clearance you want by sanding the channel, try a skim bed on top of what is already bedded and lift the barrel with tape to give the extra clearance while the epoxy sets up.

You can always go with the speed bump (#2) later. #1 (tape) is a temporary solution that might end up failing at the worst time.


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20 thousands of barrel clearance is a thing… PROVIDED you bedded the rifle that is…

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Each rifle is different! I don’t know if I’d do a “full length bedding” on a wood stocked rifle…..but, do like my “full length bedded” synthetic stocked rifle! If it will shoot, I think that full length offers a couple of pluses for the hunter….especially if inclement weather includes rain, snow and below freezing temperatures!


Whether you “full length bed” or go with a “pressure point”……you can always “hog it out” later if you’re dissatisfied! 😉

Imagine that……I didn’t answer your question! 😁 memtb


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You had a barrel that shot fine when fully free floated. Now it doesn't because it's not fully floated. Hmmmm...
There is a real gun scribe who lurks on here who says if you can pinch the forend tip and the barrel together with your hand, it's not really floated.
Same guy has also used the old bread tab trick to check if more float helps. You take the plastic tab from a loaf of bread and put it under your action near the recoil lug and torque it down. This puts your action at a slight upward slant in the stock and gives you added barrel clearance. If the rifle shoots better you know that more barrel float is beneficial to your rifle and can now decide how to accomplish same.
Apologies to Mule Deer.


I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all.
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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
#3, more barrel clearance. This can be hard to accomplish if you have a plastic tip on the stock. The tip on a Rem CDL is hollow, so you can only take so much off!

I like a lot of clearance with wooden stock tips, especially those with tapered fore ends. Those have a lot of flex. If you can't get the clearance you want by sanding the channel, try a skim bed on top of what is already bedded and lift the barrel with tape to give the extra clearance while the epoxy sets up.

You can always go with the speed bump (#2) later. #1 (tape) is a temporary solution that might end up failing at the worst time.

That's the route I'd take, since the barrel shot real well when it was freefloated before. Optimal clearance is key there too. Since It's already been glass bedded, I probably wouldn't use the bread bag trick, however that works well with a factory stock where you don't want to depreciate the value of the collectible rifle with glass bedding. That's why my smith favored the bread bag clip on some of his pre 64 model 70's and he had been doing it for longer than most. This is all under the assumption the OP's rifle is actually "properly" glass bedded.. Some aren't, I've had to fix a few done by "gunsmiths"..


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Excellent input everyone. I really appreciate it.

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One more note:

Putting a pressure-tip in a wooden stock may result in smaller groups than free-floating, but unless the stock is extremely well sealed point-of-impact may change with atmospheric moisture. Which is one reason many prefer sufficient free-floating, enough to prevent contact between barrel and forend channel during firing. And a .358 Norma's barrel can flex considerably, partly because of the cartridge but also because the .35-caliber hole results in the barrel not being as stiff as a smaller caliber barrel.


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While I have heard of it, I personally have never experienced a rifle that shot better with forend pressure. In my experience ample clearance and a fully floating barrel is the way to go.

On wood stocks I also like to hog out a channel running the length of the forend and sink a steel or carbon rod in there, filled with epoxy for stiffness. You can also straighten a warped or twisted forend this way too.

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Quote
And a .358 Norma's barrel can flex considerably, partly because of the cartridge but also because the .35-caliber hole results in the barrel not being as stiff as a smaller caliber barrel.

Interesting thought.


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Not just a thought. Have had difficulties with getting more than one lighter-contour .35 caliber barrel to group consistently, including some well-regarded custom barrels.


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Thanks for the input!

It is a fairly heavy contour barrel and is bedded properly by a competent 'smith. Kinda purty to boot!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I think my plan at the moment is to shoot it and hunt it local as-is for a year or so and see if I get much POI shifting. This gun is the backup to a backup to a backup so not really critical for any immediate hunting trips out of state.

If I trim the tape close to the stockline nobody will ever notice it.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

In the meantime, if I pick up a decent synthetic that I like (wouldn't mind having one should this rifle find itself heading to Alaska in the next few years) I may just see how it shoots in a stiff synthetic fully floated with lots of clearance. If that works, it will be time to remove some wood and seal the barrel channel on the wood stock.

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Interesting. What's the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle?

Also might mention that despite what some believe, fluting a barrel does not make it stiffer.


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I am not an expert, but in my experience a gun with a fair amount of recoil, a flimsy fore end and off a bipod is a hard combo to get to shoot consistently. The barrel has shot good in the past , but has been rechambered. I believe you need to either address the fore end and shoot off a good rest , to work out the other variables. Then integrate the bipod back into the setup. Bipods tend to magnify an issue such as yours, and the recoil of a .358 Norma working against the bipod also does.

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Originally Posted by MedRiver
Recently put together a .358 Norma with parts from a few rifles. The barrel is an unknown maker but was originally a .35 Whelen on a MRC 1999 action in a fully floated HS precision stock. In that configuration it shot very well for my buddy that I bought it off of. I was present during load development with the 225 TSX and it was easily MOA or better.

I robbed the barrel and put it on a Model 70 Classic action and used a wood stock from another model 70 Classic. The stock has been pillar and glass bedded to this barreled action. It was also free floated but does not have much clearance. If I grab the end of the stock it easily makes contact with the barrel.

Initial load work up showed lots of vertical stringing with very little horizontal dispersion. A business card jammed between the barrel and the stock settled it right down to between 1 and 1.5 MOA but the card would shift positions between shots. 2 Cards would really send the POI high and groups opened up to about 2 MOA.

I tried several thickness and positions of electrical tape wrapped on the barrel. Like the two cards, heavy layers of tape changed POI significantly (as much as 4-5"). The vertical stringing pretty well disappeared but still had plenty of 2+ MOA groups.

I decided to work more methodically and used just enough tape (three wraps) to almost make full contact with the end of the stock but there was still some play when I grabbed the end of the stock. Dispersion was about 2"+ horizontal and a little over 1" vertical.

Two more wraps gave me solid contact with the stock. It was like turning on an accuracy light switch...

The next four went into .877", the next three with a full cool went .751", the next three with a full cool went 1.045". Average of ten shots was .891" with pretty even dispersion. If I were to overlay all three groups I estimate it would be around 1.25 - 1.5 MOA with 9 of the ten MOA or better. Plenty accurate for anything I plan to point it at.

All shooting was prone off the same bipod and rear bag for consistency.

Between the business card and the tape experiment it is obvious to me this gun will shoot with a little forend pressure. My only concern with adding pressue is potential POI shifts, particularly with a wood stock. I also know the barrel used to shoot well in a stiff composite that was fully free-floated.

My questions are:

Keep the tape and shoot as is?

Have my stock guy permanently bed a "speed bump"?

Get aggressive with the stock and hog it out enough to where it won't make contact even if it flexes?


I am open to all three options just curious what the campfire consensus is.

Thanks

Have an old pencil Bbl'ed M700/270 Win that I bedded the action on long ago.

Was still unhappy with it, so I started adding layers of 1" masking tape across the fore-end channel, a little behind the fore-end cap, until grabbing the fore-end from the bottom and pushing up on the barrel with my index finger took maybe 5# to get it to flex apart.

Took it to the range and it shot great.

Used an Exacto-knife and cut two 1/2" squares out of the piled tape, from ~ 45° from BDC of the Bbl. back down to ~ 30°, and dug into the wood of the stock a little as well.

Then greased the Bbl. lightly with Vaseline, slightly overfilled the pockets with bedding compound, and then mounted the action tight.

After the bedding cured, removed the tape forms and chamfered the edges of the bedding blocks with a little sand-paper to clean them up.


It has shot lights out ever since.




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If I want contact/pressure between a forearm and barrel, I use neoprene O-rings. Neoprene is soft enough to contour itself to any irregularities and provide constant pressure. It works for me, particularly so with mannlicher-style stocks where the barrel and forearm cap may come into contact with each other.

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Harold Vaughn was a bit of an expert on the physics of rifle accuracy, and he wrote about this issue. To summarize, it is surprisingly hard to make a really rigid threaded joint. Just 2-3 threads end up taking all the load.

There is a way to make the barrel-receiver joint rigid, by cutting threads with a special profile.

The symptom of a non-rigid joint is fliers.

If I understand his writings correctly, forestock pressure will only help of the problem is fliers.

If you can't do the special threads, then forestock pressure will pre-load the receiver-barrel joint. Sometimes that works. The lore I've heard says that you want about 8 pounds of upward force on the barrel. Vaughn recommends that this be accomplished with two nylon screws in the forestock, at about 90 degrees. The screws are tightened to provide balanced force and the right amount of force. I've personally never seen that done, but that's what he recommends for those who feel an overwhelming urge to apply forestock force.

And to comment on MD's correct statement that fluting does not increase stiffness: That's right, but it does increase the Q of the barrel. That is undesirable. More Q contributes more barrel whip.

Last edited by denton; 07/30/22.

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denton,

Thanks for mentioning Harold Vaughan, as both you and I have before. There have been a lot of gun writers who've performed experiments involving barrel and action bedding, but I cannot recall any others who were actual rocket scientists--and wrote a book detailing their experiments....


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