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Posting here as thought maybe one of our gunwriter friends have an inside scoop…. With introductions of new rounds I keep seeing things along the lines of “Hornady said they will never make 6.8 Western because it competes with the 6.5 PRC”. It won’t surprise me if soon we here “Nosler won’t ever make 7mm PRC because it competes with 28 Nosler”. So my question is there some royalties companies get that these rounds “compete” with each other or is it simply prestige in the market place. I would think all the ammo makers hope somebody comes up with something new (or re-packaged for crumudgeons) that causes people to buy a bunch of new ammo whether it is their creation or not and will jump on whatever sells vs. holding some competitve grudge. That being said, if there are royalties involved I can see the benefit of only pushing “your cartridge”. However the only thing I have ever heard along these lines is that due to Jamison law suit the WSMs got a price adder for a while. Anybody have any ideas or this is just more internet chatter?

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That's how the ".30-30" moniker came about. I believe it was Remington who didn't want to put "Winchester" on their products, but the .30 Winchester Center Fire was selling good.

Nowadays, a lot of people don't know what a .30 WCF is but everybody has heard of .30-30.

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Why do you think Ruger and Cooper quit chambering the PPC? Ruger lost a patent and/or trademark case as the inventors locked it up for royalties. So it’s not just Jamison, which by the way he was right.



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Marlin had a very vocal fight with Winchester in the early smokeless powder days. Primer size was one of the problems.
Recreation magazine gad a running fight with Remington-UMC ammunition.
There were other serious fights but those two are pretty well known.


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Originally Posted by william_iorg
Marlin had a very vocal fight with Winchester in the early smokeless powder days. Primer size was one of the problems.
Recreation magazine gad a running fight with Remington-UMC ammunition.
There were other serious fights but those two are pretty well known.

Yep, also Grosvenor by accounts submitted 250 Savage necked down to 22 caliber for Winchesters new 220 Swift. There are 2 theories as to why the Lee Navy was modified.
Theory 1 is that Winchester thought that the Savage brass couldn’t handle the pressure at the base. So by modifying the Lee Navy to semi rimmed strengthened the base enough for the pressure.

Theory 2 Winchester knew that the necked down Savage brass would work but they didn’t want to use Savage brass nor pay for the rights on their brand new super cartridge. Winchester was the sole supplier/maker of Lee Navy so they owned it.

Sad, as the 22 Varminter was born a year or so later and in 63 was dubbed 22.250 Remington.



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In the 1930's, Jerry Gebby, wildcatter/gunsmith of note, secured a copyright on the .22 Varminter which was nothing more nor less than the .250 Savage necked down to hold a .224 bullet. Supposedly anybody who chambered a rifle for that cartridge had to pay him a royalty. (Previously guys like Niedner and Donaldson had done the same thing but with .228" bullets, which was the standard .22CF size not .224" until 90 or so years ago.) That didn't stop a lot of guys from making .22 Varminter rifles and whether the royalties were paid is anybody's guess. When the copyright expired Remington jumped on it with both feet and the .22-250 as we know it today was born.

I've owned Winchester High Walls barreled by Gebby in R2 Lovell and .219 Wasp, but never a .22 Varminter.


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Originally Posted by william_iorg
Marlin had a very vocal fight with Winchester in the early smokeless powder days. Primer size was one of the problems.
Recreation magazine gad a running fight with Remington-UMC ammunition.
There were other serious fights but those two are pretty well known.

Now that you mention it, it may have been Marlin instead of Remington that wouldn't label a rifle ".30 WCF".

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It was Marlin that started the "30/30" moniker, I think Marlin did that across the board for all Winchester cartridges chambered in Marlin's rifles.

Remington was sued by Winchester over Remington's use of "30/30 Remington" for the 30 Remington cartridge used in the Model 8 rifle. Winchester lost the suit when it was discovered there was no copywrite on the designation while Remington dropped the use of "30/30 Remington" due to confusion between Winchester's rimmed cartridge and Remington's very similar rimless cartridge. Both sides ended up winners and losers over that fight.

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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Why do you think Ruger and Cooper quit chambering the PPC? Ruger lost a patent and/or trademark case as the inventors locked it up for royalties. So it’s not just Jamison, which by the way he was right.

The only problem with the Jamison argument is there was a near identical cartridge that pre-dated his by 40 years or so.

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But that wildcat cartridge was never copyrighted or, especially, patented. And copyright and/or patent are the legal basis for that sort of stuff.

I know this partly because, like several other gun writers, I was contacted by some of the people involved in the case.


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I have no business of commenting on gun writer or legalities of intellectual property, but I believe there is a concept of "prior use" that can come into play at times regarding patent fights. Not sure if this is one of them.

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I'll send you an e-mail with some background information.


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Jamison was right. He was black balled for years but has recently been publishing articles again which is a good thing. Always enjoyed his writings from years ago.


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Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
That's how the ".30-30" moniker came about. I believe it was Remington who didn't want to put "Winchester" on their products, but the .30 Winchester Center Fire was selling good.

Nowadays, a lot of people don't know what a .30 WCF is but everybody has heard of .30-30.
Marlin. Remington never chambered the 30-30

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Lou_270 Offline OP
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Some interesting history items but still not clear if say Remington pays Hornady something for every round of 6.5 creedmoor they sell? Or maybe Hornady has to give some permission for say Federal to load 6.5 PRC ammo? Not sure if this is handled like other intellectual property or not. On one hand seems reasonable given the R&D spend to bring out a new round. On the other hand people handload rifle cartridges and chamber custom guns in stuff all the time which seems would violate not to mention gun and ammo manufacturers

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Well at least it keeps the lawyers fed.

Everybody’s gotta eat.

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Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
That's how the ".30-30" moniker came about. I believe it was Remington who didn't want to put "Winchester" on their products, but the .30 Winchester Center Fire was selling good.

Nowadays, a lot of people don't know what a .30 WCF is but everybody has heard of .30-30.
Marlin. Remington never chambered the 30-30

I have seen .30-30s in Remington bolt-actions rifles made in the 50s. A friend of mine had one, he searched for years for it. He said it was a very rare bird.

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Originally Posted by tylerw02
Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
That's how the ".30-30" moniker came about. I believe it was Remington who didn't want to put "Winchester" on their products, but the .30 Winchester Center Fire was selling good.

Nowadays, a lot of people don't know what a .30 WCF is but everybody has heard of .30-30.
Marlin. Remington never chambered the 30-30

I have seen .30-30s in Remington bolt-actions rifles made in the 50s. A friend of mine had one, he searched for years for it. He said it was a very rare bird.

And what model would that be ? The only rifle I know of made by Remington in 30-30 was the 788, made 67-83


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Originally Posted by tylerw02
Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
That's how the ".30-30" moniker came about. I believe it was Remington who didn't want to put "Winchester" on their products, but the .30 Winchester Center Fire was selling good.

Nowadays, a lot of people don't know what a .30 WCF is but everybody has heard of .30-30.
Marlin. Remington never chambered the 30-30

I have seen .30-30s in Remington bolt-actions rifles made in the 50s. A friend of mine had one, he searched for years for it. He said it was a very rare bird.


Bet it was 30 Remington not 30-30 Winchester. They look similar. Believe it was first chambered in the Model 8

The .30 Remington cartridge was created in 1906 by Remington Arms. It was Remington's rimless answer to the popular .30-30 Winchester cartridge. Factory ammunition was produced until the late 1980s, but now it is a prospect for handloaders. Load data for the .30-30 Winchester can be used safely for the .30 Remington.



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Yes, I am quite familiar with the 30 Remington. I have a pristine Model 30 Express so chambered.


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