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Joined: Jun 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,600 |
One major problem with re-creating the A-1 is avgas. To support that one aircraft, you'd need an entirely separate logistics line of just the fuel, in addition to going back to a piston engine and all their maintenance needs. You'd probably triple the logistics costs. (Not to mention that the jigs to manufacture the planes and engines are long gone.)
Jorge, my SEAL analogy is based on having a right-sized, highly capable resource at hand to perform "stitch in time" missions. People who argue that this plane would be useless in peer to peer engagements are missing the whole point. To make yet another analogy, a fire extinguisher may be useless against a wildfire, but that doesn't mean we don't need fire extinguishers. Correct on the AVGAS. IT became a big deal to keep even a couple of hundred gallons on board the carrier for some of the SEAL Team applications. Back to this procurement and looking at current possible scenarios (just as you say) I'm thinking existing helo inventories could cover, especially providing just in time CAS to engaged SEAL/DELTA missions in need of it. Hell Cobras are about as good as it gets. But, I'd give anything to strap that little bird on and go! Helos don’t have the range, the loiter, or the ability to hang out quietly up high while “over watching”. Also helos cost a ton more $$ per hour. Drones. Hell, we used to do med altitude, long loiter time in the Viking using FLIR, ESM etc and the rag heads would never hear us. We'd just coordinate with AWACS and the duty CAS birds would deliver PGMs and they never knew what hit them. Then again since I don't know the suite makeup of this bird, it might work, but drones pretty much put a lot of manned, recce missions out of business if for no other reason than the ultimate savings; the life of the aircrew.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,600
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,600 |
⁶Haha! Yep. Nothing quite says "stealthy" and "deniable" like a Cobra gunship.  Cobras are for the end game, not the stealthy/recce mission. That's what Rocky used to do. Reece, then call in the CAS which were far from quiet, But I'll defer to your combat aviation experience.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,286
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,286 |
⁶Haha! Yep. Nothing quite says "stealthy" and "deniable" like a Cobra gunship. Cobras are for the end game, not the stealthy/recce mission. That's what Rocky used to do. Reece, then call in the CAS which were far from quiet, But I'll defer to your combat aviation experience. So..what about the time in between?
I am MAGA.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,600
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,600 |
⁶Haha! Yep. Nothing quite says "stealthy" and "deniable" like a Cobra gunship. Cobras are for the end game, not the stealthy/recce mission. That's what Rocky used to do. Reece, then call in the CAS which were far from quiet, But I'll defer to your combat aviation experience. So..what about the time in between? In today's environment? Practically all done with drones. And BTW, the Israelis are master at this in heavily populated areas with LOTS of eyes and lots of experience at "death from above" by the IAF. What do they use besides drone? Helps at 10K with sensors hovering over populated areas (yes with very short transit times so when longer ranges are the case they use fixed wing assets and now lots of drones).
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,499
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,499 |
⁶Haha! Yep. Nothing quite says "stealthy" and "deniable" like a Cobra gunship. Cobras are for the end game, not the stealthy/recce mission. That's what Rocky used to do. Reece, then call in the CAS which were far from quiet, But I'll defer to your combat aviation experience. So..what about the time in between? Jimmy I got a serious case of the chits today…
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,019
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,019 |
One major problem with re-creating the A-1 is avgas. To support that one aircraft, you'd need an entirely separate logistics line of just the fuel, in addition to going back to a piston engine and all their maintenance needs. You'd probably triple the logistics costs. (Not to mention that the jigs to manufacture the planes and engines are long gone.)
Jorge, my SEAL analogy is based on having a right-sized, highly capable resource at hand to perform "stitch in time" missions. People who argue that this plane would be useless in peer to peer engagements are missing the whole point. To make yet another analogy, a fire extinguisher may be useless against a wildfire, but that doesn't mean we don't need fire extinguishers. Correct on the AVGAS. IT became a big deal to keep even a couple of hundred gallons on board the carrier for some of the SEAL Team applications. Back to this procurement and looking at current possible scenarios (just as you say) I'm thinking existing helo inventories could cover, especially providing just in time CAS to engaged SEAL/DELTA missions in need of it. Hell Cobras are about as good as it gets. But, I'd give anything to strap that little bird on and go! Helos don’t have the range, the loiter, or the ability to hang out quietly up high while “over watching”. Also helos cost a ton more $$ per hour. Drones. Hell, we used to do med altitude, long loiter time in the Viking using FLIR, ESM etc and the rag heads would never hear us. We'd just coordinate with AWACS and the duty CAS birds would deliver PGMs and they never knew what hit them. Then again since I don't know the suite makeup of this bird, it might work, but drones pretty much put a lot of manned, recce missions out of business if for no other reason than the ultimate savings; the life of the aircrew. UAS’s definitely have a place, but they have their own logistics tail… the main reason I see for this aircraft is the flexibility. This is not a “USAF” aircraft that belongs to the COCOM fragged from ACC or STRATCOM, this is a SOCOM aircraft that belongs to the same guy who’s running the mission on the ground. It has the lowest logistical requirements of any of the current systems, while belonging to the command that is executing the mission. I completely see how this system is superior to UAS’s and other assets for the specific mission it will be tasked with. (There is a reason BTW that the U-2 is still around in the USAF and the Globalhawk isn’t).
Intellectual honesty is the most important character trait in human beings.
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Joined: May 2016
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
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No keep going...just wondering why the SEALS might want a quiet, fast, lethal, deniable Rocky flying about rather than having the 6th fleet parked on the coast.
I am MAGA.
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Joined: May 2016
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,286 |
If this is all solvable with drones, aircraft carriers and super duper fighter jets....who is forcing this on the SEALS?
I am MAGA.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,600
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,600 |
If this is all solvable with drones, aircraft carriers and super duper fighter jets....who is forcing this on the SEALS? It's not. And not by a long shot as Load Clear very nicely described above. closer proximity to the guy on the ground running the mission and at the tip of the spear. It might work very well for "just in time" support. Bottom line is a lot of guys with a lot more smarts than me, said it was GTG. Let us hope it works. Attached is a dated video illustrating there were/are assets out there for long range/loiter time recce and CAS missions. The FLIR (Forward Looking Infrared) video was taken from an S-3B Viking long since retired (like me) but arguably one of the most versatile platforms in Naval Aviation since the F-4. We're above MANPAD reach, loitering for about 3 plus hrs. A Team was on the ground ready to pounce on a cell when they were "made" started taking fire and running like hell because they knew what was coming. A quick check with AWACS, MUCH higher up to see what was available, so they sent two F-16s. Anyway, one GBU-12 from above and they were quickly enjoying those sixty plus virgins and goats they rave about. [video:youtube]vhttps://i.imgur.com/tijZKih.mp4[/video]
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,693
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,693 |
A new 802 Air Tractor today is $2,000,000 flat with no accessories!
Dumb idea!
A load of #1 buckshot would bring one down!!
Even birds know not to land downwind!
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593 |
No, Jorge is a brilliant man. And I would never think of trying to debate him on half a dozen subjects. We may differ a bit on this topic, but it's likely a matter of different military experiences. Navy and Air Force have very different jobs, and each group sees things their own way. That's great. But he's wrong a lot and he can't be made to see otherwise.
There's a word for that. Any guesses what it is?Male?
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,234
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,234 |
Sharpsman, when Holloween comes, do not presume to dress as Sherlock Holmes. Because you have not a clue.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,507
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,507 |
One major problem with re-creating the A-1 is avgas. To support that one aircraft, you'd need an entirely separate logistics line of just the fuel, in addition to going back to a piston engine and all their maintenance needs. You'd probably triple the logistics costs. (Not to mention that the jigs to manufacture the planes and engines are long gone.)
Jorge, my SEAL analogy is based on having a right-sized, highly capable resource at hand to perform "stitch in time" missions. People who argue that this plane would be useless in peer to peer engagements are missing the whole point. To make yet another analogy, a fire extinguisher may be useless against a wildfire, but that doesn't mean we don't need fire extinguishers. Correct on the AVGAS. IT became a big deal to keep even a couple of hundred gallons on board the carrier for some of the SEAL Team applications. Back to this procurement and looking at current possible scenarios (just as you say) I'm thinking existing helo inventories could cover, especially providing just in time CAS to engaged SEAL/DELTA missions in need of it. Hell Cobras are about as good as it gets. But, I'd give anything to strap that little bird on and go! Helos don’t have the range, the loiter, or the ability to hang out quietly up high while “over watching”. Also helos cost a ton more $$ per hour. Drones. Hell, we used to do med altitude, long loiter time in the Viking using FLIR, ESM etc and the rag heads would never hear us. We'd just coordinate with AWACS and the duty CAS birds would deliver PGMs and they never knew what hit them. Then again since I don't know the suite makeup of this bird, it might work, but drones pretty much put a lot of manned, recce missions out of business if for no other reason than the ultimate savings; the life of the aircrew. UAS’s definitely have a place, but they have their own logistics tail… the main reason I see for this aircraft is the flexibility. This is not a “USAF” aircraft that belongs to the COCOM fragged from ACC or STRATCOM, this is a SOCOM aircraft that belongs to the same guy who’s running the mission on the ground. It has the lowest logistical requirements of any of the current systems, while belonging to the command that is executing the mission. I completely see how this system is superior to UAS’s and other assets for the specific mission it will be tasked with. (There is a reason BTW that the U-2 is still around in the USAF and the Globalhawk isn’t). Thanks for your well informed input. This seems to follow, for good or for bad, the Eric Prince model of strategy against insurgents. Small groups inserted full time directly embedded into the local population (not a FOB) with all support and logistics including CAS contained locally and controlled by them. These A/C are exactly, as pointed out earlier by another, the precise thing that EP envisioned for the same exact application that EP envisioned.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,373
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,373 |
It seems obvious. They're buying crop dusters to fight brush wars.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,555
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,555 |
No, Jorge is a brilliant man. And I would never think of trying to debate him on half a dozen subjects. We may differ a bit on this topic, but it's likely a matter of different military experiences. Navy and Air Force have very different jobs, and each group sees things their own way. That's great. But he's wrong a lot and he can't be made to see otherwise.
There's a word for that. Any guesses what it is?Male? Ha!
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,693
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,693 |
Sharpsman, when Holloween comes, do not presume to dress as Sherlock Holmes. Because you have not a clue. Only a few thousand hours flying Air Tractors! Pull your head outa your ass! You’re not the only one that has flying time!
Even birds know not to land downwind!
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,238
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,238 |
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,614
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,614 |
Sharpsman, when Holloween comes, do not presume to dress as Sherlock Holmes. Because you have not a clue. Only a few thousand hours flying Air Tractors! Pull your head outa your ass! You’re not the only one that has flying time! Boom . . . . .dude knows everything, stand back. 😁
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
Is it really that difficult to see the utility in this aircraft? LOL
I really wish COVID did 25% of what they claimed it could.
Fugking morons.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,286
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,286 |
Yeah. Something small, light, fast, and deadly.
Something that you can maintain with a Leatherman, fuel with farm diesel, and pass off as an agricultural aircraft.
Sounds terrible.
I am MAGA.
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