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Norma brass fed 215 primer, 83 grains AA2230 COAL 3.3665" 2463 FPS



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Yes Sir Ron, so very little time, that little double would be a world star with those 400gr lever solids, i'd gladly shoot everything with them, never mind a soft point load.

Damn good stuff LDM and JWP, we're ALL going to have to quit slamming steel and punching paper and go kill some meat somewhere. cool


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Fall is coming and mine will take its yearly sacrifice of whitetail.

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Norma brass fed 215 primer, 85 grains AA2230 COAL 3.3665" 2523 FPS



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Do you guys adjust your dies so that they do not touch the belt? I assume you would not want to bump the belt and change the headspace.

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I only resize enough to hold a bullet. However that is almost a full length resize. I don’t know of a belted mag die that would actually bump the belt so….
Your mileage might vary.

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That's what I thought but a buddy with way more belted magnum experience than I have said it was an issue to avoid. He said his gun failed to fire a primer because of it, so he altered how he sets up the die. I set mine up like any other die, and followed the directions it came with.

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Originally Posted by Fury01
Fall is coming and mine will take its yearly sacrifice of whitetail.

Perfect F01, i'm going to use Sir Ron's 404 Hammers on all manner of plains game and a big Cape Buffalo if i can find one, will be good tests for that new bullet, 2500 fps will let me hunt the plains game out to 350 yards, i would like to stalk in and slam the buffalo as close as possible, another small testament to the 458 WM+'s versatility. cool


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Gunner,
We all await the practical field application. I think that 404 Hammer is the top-dog for versatility.
Near or far, big or small; it pretty much does it all.

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Just got in from shooting the 458's over the radar. Out of my 23" barrel from the R8, the WM averaged 2125 at the muzzle, and the Lott averaged 2270 at the muzzle. Both were 500g Federal factory ammo. If there was any loss at all from the WM being fired in a Lott chamber, then I'm not sure why anyone buys a Lott today, lol. I will say though, that, unlike the first time I fired the Lott last week, today the Lott ammo seemed to be gentler than the WM ammo. Either way, if you can show me an animal that can tell the difference, under any circumstance within 100 yards, I'd be amazed. The difference in velocity at 100 yards, btw, was even less, 1924 for the WM vs 1980 for the Lott.

I will shoot the factory 400's for velocity as well, but I am pretty short on them right now and just didn't take them out.

Fortunately, my 405g cast bullets arrived today (.460) and I'm hoping I can get them over 2000fps without leading.

Last edited by SLGPT; 08/06/22.
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Originally Posted by ldmay375
Gunner,
We all await the practical field application. I think that 404 Hammer is the top-dog for versatility.
Near or far, big or small; it pretty much does it all.


Yessir, i certainly intend to find out, unproven bullet yes, but massive thought/R&D factored in, will still be backed by a mag full of 500gr TBSS's at 2350, i dont expect a rodeo, but have no doubts they'll sort one out in short order.


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Originally Posted by jwp475
Norma cases, fed 215 primer, 81 grains AA2230, 404 Shock Hammer averaged 2422 FPS. COAL 3.3665" which just fits the magazine of the MarkX Mauser action

79 grains AA2230 behind the 450 TSX gave 2388 FPS


Originally Posted by jwp475
Norma brass fed 215 primer, 83 grains AA2230 COAL 3.3665" 2463 FPS

Originally Posted by jwp475
Norma brass fed 215 primer, 85 grains AA2230 COAL 3.3665" 2523 FPS

Sir John,
More good work noted.
Last two loads above must surely be a continuation on the 404gr Shock Hammer.
Is your barrel the factory Whitworth or a custom ?
Length is 24" or maybe 23.6"/600mm if factory ?



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Yes, great speed and work Sir Ron, another pointer that my load with the 404gr Hammer at 2500 with 2460 has to be extremely low pressure, i cant wait to loose it the first time.


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Sir Jerry,

I am sure you won't be gut-shooting that cape buffalo at close range like Jack Lott did in 1959 with a .458 WinMag.
And your 500-gr TBSS from the .458 WM+ will not go squirrely like Jacks's followup RN-FMJ from a .458 WM,
even if you were to somehow shoot as poorly as Jack did.
Terrible mishaps do happen.
You might have a meteorite strike next to your feet just as you touch off and wobble your aim or cause a reflex flinch from meteorite impact.
Funny how Jack and his buddies kept hunting with their .458 WinMags for over a decade before concocting the stories about .458 WinMag failures.
That BS was all about shooter failure and poor bullet construction unable to stand up to the mighty power of the .458 WinMag.
Excuses to sell some wildcats, like the .458 Lott and .460 G&A.



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Sir Roo,
I would blame your fingers for misapplication of the Lee Lube.
But Lee lube is less good than RCBS Lube-2.
Lee Liquid Alox might be OK for lazy man cast bullet lubrication of a bucket full of handgun plinkers,
but man oh man is it ever messy in cleanup,
if tried for bullet sizing of jacketed and monometal brass and copper.
Ditto STP Oil Treatment, never again.

Too much of whatever lube gives lube dents, too little gives stuck case.
Lyman pad is best at uniform light lubing of cases, with RCBS Lube-2.
Roll seven at a time for good luck.
Roll with light pressure for one complete revolution forward, then backward,to where they started on pad.
Make sure you hold your tongue just right as you do it.
Then each case can be picked up off the pad and twisted and twirled between fingers of other hand on the way to going into sizing die,
which is especially satisfying if you like coon-fingering the lubed brass like me.
Keep a rag or paper or cloth shop towels draped over your thigh as you sit there, rolling and fingering,
to wipe the lubed fingers on now and then.

H&H belt:
I once tried to order some fancy dies billed for special care of H&H belt.
Unavailable/out of stock at the time, years ago.
So, I forgot about it.
I just FL size as with any other non-belted case and never had a problem.
Same brass works in all my many .458 WM rifles, never a missfire or difficulty in chambering.



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Originally Posted by gunner500
Yes, great speed and work Sir Ron, another pointer that my load with the 404gr Hammer at 2500 with 2460 has to be extremely low pressure, i cant wait to loose it the first time.

Yes, Sir John is shooting .458 WM+ loads at ~3.37" COL in his standard SAAMI .458 WinMag with standard mag box.
~2500 fps with AA-2230, 3.37" COL, in 24" barrel, in Norma brass.
~2500 fps with AA-2460, 3.48" COL, in 24" barrel, in Winchester, Hornady, or RP brass.
Both loads have about same effective case volume, due to brass difference, wee bit larger in the WW/H/RP at 3.480".

Exact velocities and pressures depend on the rifles, of course.
Remember Tim Sundles 400-gr TSX Buffalo Bore factory load for .458 WinMag
getting 2247 fps in his 22" factory M70
and 2250 fps in his 18" custom M98 with Marquart barrel, and possibly a tighter throat, tighter/smoother rifling,
and possibly higher pressures. He does not say much about that.
Custom rifle.

My Ruger No. 1 barrel, 24" factory barrel, gave 2336 fps MV (2323 fps 5-yard chrono), 10-shot average with Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX load.
That was with factory load COL of 3.310".
My Ruger No. 1 is intermediate in speed to the two rifles of Tim Sundles, correcting for barrel length.

That 400-gr TSX was pulled from factory ammo and loaded to 3.540" COL (last groove crimp).
Loaded with 80.0 grains AA-2230 the MV was 2405 fps (2392 fps 5-yard chrono) 5-shot average.
That was just about a full case load at longCOL.
I SWAG that the Buffalo Bore factory load is with 76.0 grains of AA-2230, compressed at 3.310" COL.

Do not worry about powder compression unless you bulge the case on seating the bullet,
or have signs of high pressure on firing, of course.
MIB pressure data on that 20" .458 WM and some .458 Lott is pending.



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R,
Thank you for the testing and results. Thank goodness someone can and will do it!

I usually just find something that works and go kill game without creating any lasting record, other than pix of dead game!

So, here are two pix of unusual game taken with my 100 year plus rifle design : PS the hunter behind the cat is NOT a beginner.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Rifle:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
45-90 cartridge with NF bullet:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Also lots of Cape Buff, but pix of them are very common.

Last edited by crshelton; 08/06/22.

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Belted cases which also have a shoulder should be resized like any other non belted case and fitting the shoulder to the chamber. Likely that is what your buddy was referring to.
The 458wm always hEad spaces on the belt so we can’t sent chamber crush on the shoulder because there isn’t one.
I do wish Lee would make me a 458wm collet die but alas they only go up to .375.

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Thank you again for the help. Sir Ron is probably correct that the lube issue was a loose nut behind the press, but though it was my first time trying the Lee lube, I did follow directions and if anything, I thought it might be too much lube. Didn't get any dents though. At any rate, Imperial saved the day, and once my Lyman/RCBS hybrid shows up, I will give that a try as well.

If anyone has any thoughts on the velocity I was getting, I would be interested to hear them. 145fps difference hardly seems worth anything, and at 100 yards, only a 64fps difference. Can't imagine the Lott showing any difference at all on game, over the great 458WM. The Blaser design is pretty unique, and it allows for things not possible with a conventional bolt gun. In this case, the bolt throw and overall length are not negatively affected by using the Lott, and in those two areas, using the WM provides no benefit. In a conventional bolt gun, of course there are differences that can matter to some. Looking forward to my Mark X arriving Monday.

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Sir Charles,
Great photos, great memories, eh ?
Yep that .45-90-2.4" of yours is almost up to .458 WinMag-2.5" snuff.
Makes a laughing stock of anyone claiming the .458 WinMag is inadequate.



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