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Just got my first chronograph in 3 decades of handloading and having a little trouble understanding the data. Seems quite a bit of difference in the strings (series as Magnetospeed calls it) and wondering whats up! Same loads, same brass, same primers, same bullets, same powder and charge, all shot 15 minutes apart on same gun! Wondering how the SD and ES can be so different. Groups were pretty much the same except series 2 was a bit better.

I use a Chargermaster 1500 to trickle and weigh each load, Forster sizing and seating dies, RCBS Rock Chucker press, new Starline brass, GM205m match primers, 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip bullets (although factory seconds) and LT-32 powder. Just can't understand why each series is so different. Am I asking to much to expect SD's and ES's to be very close to each other or is this about as good as it gets? All three are accurate enough to put down varmints of a fairly small size but I was hoping to get a little better results with this combination of goodies! Seems you almost have to shoot many groups to get an average of SD and ES. I could see passing up what might be a good load by only shooting one group!

Whats you experience with your loads? Is this one good? Am I asking to much to want something a little better or maybe more consistent would be a better word?

Series 1 Shots: 5 AR 223 55 nbt LT-32 21.7
Min 2695 Max 2739 Avg 2715 S-D 15.8 ES 44
Series Shot Speed 1 1 2739 ft/s 1 2 2713 ft/s 1 3 2719 ft/s 1 4 2712 ft/s 1 5 2695 ft/s

Series 2 Shots: 5 AR 223 55 nbt LT-32 21.7
Min 2717 Max 2736 Avg 2726 S-D 8.7 ES 19
Series Shot Speed 2 1 2719 ft/s 2 2 2735 ft/s 2 3 2717 ft/s 2 4 2736 ft/s 2 5 2726 ft/s

Series 3 Shots: 5 AR 223 55 nbt LT-32 21.7
Min 2707 Max 2735 Avg 2722 S-D 11.2 ES 28
Series Shot Speed 3 1 2714 ft/s 3 2 2727 ft/s 3 3 2707 ft/s 3 4 2735 ft/s 3 5 2727 ft/s


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1. 5 shot groups are not a good indicator for ES or SD. About all they are good for is velocity. If you run all 15 shots together to get a better indication of ES, SD.

2. You are about 1-1.5 grains lite on the LT32. Your velocity is about 150-200 fps slow.That powder works best at 97-98% case fill.



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Ran the numbers

10 shots 2720 avg, 44 ES, 13 SD

15 shots 2721 avg, 44 ES, 12 SD

Shot to shot SD = ~12-18 fps.

Livable numbers but if you bump up the charge the ES and SD will both come down, velocity will go up.



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Originally Posted by Swifty52
1. 5 shot groups are not a good indicator for ES or SD. About all they are good for is velocity. If you run all 15 shots together to get a better indication of ES, SD.

2. You are about 1-1.5 grains lite on the LT32. Your velocity is about 150-200 fps slow.That powder works best at 97-98% case fill.

Thanks very much! Previous testing without the chrono showed this charge grouped the best. I love the 2nd string with SD 8.7 and ES 19 and got kinda excited until I shot the 3rd string 15 minutes later! Lots to learn I guess! I'll have to try higher charges again!

Thanks alot!


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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Ran the numbers

10 shots 2720 avg, 44 ES, 13 SD

15 shots 2721 avg, 44 ES, 12 SD

Shot to shot SD = ~12-18 fps.

Livable numbers but if you bump up the charge the ES and SD will both come down, velocity will go up.
Thanks Swifty! I'll give it a try! Appreciate it!!


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Those are far from "bad" numbers and as stated multiple series or longer strings will tell more. I have seen instances where higher ES and SD yielded better groups than ones closer togethter. Not saying it is the norm but can happen. I wouldn't get too hung up on it as long as they are on the lower end and in many cases IMO, you can find the sweet spot when incremental increases in powder levels stop yielding average or expected increases in velocity. So as an example if velocites have been increasing by say ~75-100 FPS for each 1 grain or 1/2 grain increase in powder and your are close to upper end load and all of the sudden velos on increase by 35 FPS, then I normally see ES and SD increase as well and maybe start to see pressure signs. Just my experience and YMMV.

I am certain someone else will have varying experiences and opinions. wink

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Originally Posted by DBrink
Those are far from "bad" numbers and as stated multiple series or longer strings will tell more. I have seen instances where higher ES and SD yielded better groups than ones closer togethter. Not saying it is the norm but can happen. I wouldn't get too hung up on it as long as they are on the lower end and in many cases IMO, you can find the sweet spot when incremental increases in powder levels stop yielding average or expected increases in velocity. So as an example if velocites have been increasing by say ~75-100 FPS for each 1 grain or 1/2 grain increase in powder and your are close to upper end load and all of the sudden velos on increase by 35 FPS, then I normally see ES and SD increase as well and maybe start to see pressure signs. Just my experience and YMMV.

I am certain someone else will have varying experiences and opinions. wink
Thanks for the reply! Appreciate it! Seems the ticket here is experience (as in most things). This is my first use of a chrono in around 30 years of handloading. Only had the groups on paper to tell me what was good. I did get a little hung up on these numbers as I had expected the numbers to be closer together than what I got. I also thought this chrono would help me find GOOD loads faster and with less waste of powder and bullets! Something else I was wrong about! lol I'll have to go up and down the ladder again and see what the numbers tell me. I'm still hoping for an SD of less than 10 and an ES of less then 20! We'll see if I can find the sweet spot before hell freezes over!

Thanks for the time and knowledge sharing! Sure appreciate it!!


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I see guys fussing around with their fancy chrono's at the range. So much in fact it messes with their shooting. One newbie handloader (you see a lot of newbies getting this kind of schidt because they are led to believe they absolutely need one) came to me last year at my clubs range and asked why his groups looked like schidt when his SD's were single digits. First I said, well you have that damn thing hanging off of your barrel, second it's a Christensen Arms, plus you think you need fancy azzed dies. And "Oh, by the way why didn't you come to the "precision" rifle shoot that you asked for at the last meeting????"


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
I see guys fussing around with their fancy chrono's at the range. So much in fact it messes with their shooting. One newbie handloader (you see a lot of newbies getting this kind of schidt because they are led to believe they absolutely need one) came to me last year at my clubs range and asked why his groups looked like schidt when his SD's were single digits. First I said, well you have that damn thing hanging off of your barrel, second it's a Christensen Arms, plus you think you need fancy azzed dies. And "Oh, by the way why didn't you come to the "precision" rifle shoot that you asked for at the last meeting????"
Well I did fine for around 30 years without one but this year I got 2 350 Legends for southern Michigan hunting. When I started load testing the Lil'Gun data from Hodgdon seemed awful hot, even the starting load. It made me nervous enough to spend money I probably shouldn't have to make sure I wasn't getting into dangerous territory! Never had a problem with published data before and the same Hodgdon data for H110 was fine. Anyway, I felt I should have one to stay out of trouble now and get accurate fps readings for my ballistic solvers.

Some claim that the Magnetospeed does affect poi but not groups. who knows for sure but I'll definitely find out! Thanks for the reply especially since you seem upset by anything to do with chronographs (simply going by this post of yours) or fancy dies!

Have a great day!


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Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Thanks for the reply! Appreciate it! Seems the ticket here is experience (as in most things). This is my first use of a chrono in around 30 years of handloading. Only had the groups on paper to tell me what was good. I did get a little hung up on these numbers as I had expected the numbers to be closer together than what I got. I also thought this chrono would help me find GOOD loads faster and with less waste of powder and bullets! Something else I was wrong about! lol I'll have to go up and down the ladder again and see what the numbers tell me. I'm still hoping for an SD of less than 10 and an ES of less then 20! We'll see if I can find the sweet spot before hell freezes over!

Thanks for the time and knowledge sharing! Sure appreciate it!!

Lol bud you are barking up the wrong powder tree for that. LT32 was specifically designed for 65-70 grain bullets in the 6PPC. You are probably going to hit pressure before you get anywhere close to that with LT32. BTDT. This is the best I ever got out of that powder. 2 tenths over max, .4 over and things got real sporty. Shot with a Cooper 21 223, Oehler 35P for a chronograph.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]



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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Thanks for the reply! Appreciate it! Seems the ticket here is experience (as in most things). This is my first use of a chrono in around 30 years of handloading. Only had the groups on paper to tell me what was good. I did get a little hung up on these numbers as I had expected the numbers to be closer together than what I got. I also thought this chrono would help me find GOOD loads faster and with less waste of powder and bullets! Something else I was wrong about! lol I'll have to go up and down the ladder again and see what the numbers tell me. I'm still hoping for an SD of less than 10 and an ES of less then 20! We'll see if I can find the sweet spot before hell freezes over!

Thanks for the time and knowledge sharing! Sure appreciate it!!

Lol bud you are barking up the wrong powder tree for that. LT32 was specifically designed for 65-70 grain bullets in the 6PPC. You are probably going to hit pressure before you get anywhere close to that with LT32. BTDT. This is the best I ever got out of that powder. 2 tenths over max, .4 over and things got real sporty. Shot with a Cooper 21 223, Oehler 35P for a chronograph.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
OH thanks!!! You think a Nosler 64 bonded solid base would be a better choice for the powder? I knew it was designed for the 6PPC but didn't realize it was heavier bullets! Thanks!


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One thing you mentioned is using Factory Seconds….. check those bullets, they are “seconds” for a reason - could be varying wts., could be in the ogive, could be variations in the actual diameter. Varying weights and slight differences in the diameter will have an affect on velocity and POI.

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I should keep my mouth shut but, BSA been going through real azzhole syndrome lately. In a way though gruff as it is he’s correct. Sometimes the numbers lead you down into a rabbit hole that doesn’t lead to wonderland.

This was going to be in a different post but it’s quite fitting here. Yesterday I was doing a test on brass weight variables vs group. Again Cooper 21 223, Oehler 35P.

This group had everything going against it, random case weights of 95 grains to 100 grains. 2 different 556 cases of Norma and Federal. Now to really randomize it I loaded 3 different primers, Fed GMM, REM 7 1/2 and CCI standard.
The only thing common was powder charge and bullet. Well I removed the crimp also.
The numbers for 10 shots were not good.

Average 3252
ES 98
SD 32

But

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Small group of the day. The numbers don’t support the results. Don’t get hung up on the numbers.



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Originally Posted by Bob0921
One thing you mentioned is using Factory Seconds….. check those bullets, they are “seconds” for a reason - could be varying wts., could be in the ogive, could be variations in the actual diameter. Varying weights and slight differences in the diameter will have an affect on velocity and POI.
BOB thanks for reminding me! I to was wondering about that! I'll start checking into it! Could very well be part of it! Thanks so much!!


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Originally Posted by Swifty52
I should keep my mouth shut but, BSA been going through real azzhole syndrome lately. In a way though gruff as it is he’s correct. Sometimes the numbers lead you down into a rabbit hole that doesn’t lead to wonderland.

This was going to be in a different post but it’s quite fitting here. Yesterday I was doing a test on brass weight variables vs group. Again Cooper 21 223, Oehler 35P.

This group had everything going against it, random case weights of 95 grains to 100 grains. 2 different 556 cases of Norma and Federal. Now to really randomize it I loaded 3 different primers, Fed GMM, REM 7 1/2 and CCI standard.
The only thing common was powder charge and bullet. Well I removed the crimp also.
The numbers for 10 shots were not good.

Average 3252
ES 98
SD 32

But

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Small group of the day. The numbers don’t support the results. Don’t get hung up on the numbers.

WOW thanks Swifty!! That sure proves a point! I'm sure glad you guys are taking the time to teach an old dog new tricks!! I got this darn gizmo to keep me out of pressure issues and am starting to get lost in the data that i don't quite get yet! If BSA was trying to say that I should maybe apologize to him! Just seemed from that one post he had a chip on his shoulder about a few things that I must have triggered.

Sure appreciate the help!!!!
I'd love to say I'd buy ya a beer sometime but I never get out of Michigan anymore! In fact the range and the doctors office is all I really get to anymore! lol


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Naw you don’t owe him an apology, instead I owe an apology for hijacking your thread. He’s going to bail, loves to dish the sh*t lately. Above was a taste. Going to take me another day to correlate it all.
Use your velocity for drops, go out have fun see how I t shakes out. LT32 is a good powder.



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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Naw you don’t owe him an apology, instead I owe an apology for hijacking your thread. He’s going to bail, loves to dish the sh*t lately. Above was a taste. Going to take me another day to correlate it all.
Use your velocity for drops, go out have fun see how I t shakes out. LT32 is a good powder.
Yes it seems like a great powder. Just wish there was data for more than just 223, 5.56 and 6ppc! But I've gotta find a good load for the Nosler 64 grain bonded solid base and 2 350 Legend rifles. Always seems to be some kind of load work to keep me busy! Appreciate the help Swifty! Thanks so much!


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I've been shooting LT-32 quite a bit in the 6PPC, and I found that CCI450 primers gave me the best groups. The Hodgdon manual lists 23.1grs as max with a 55gr Hornady bullet, so you still have some room to go. Personally, I don't even get the chronograph out until I have nailed down the primer, powder charge, and seating depth a load shoots best with. I'm not going to go changing a load just to make the numbers on a chrono look pretty.


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Originally Posted by FC363
I've been shooting LT-32 quite a bit in the 6PPC, and I found that CCI450 primers gave me the best groups. The Hodgdon manual lists 23.1grs as max with a 55gr Hornady bullet, so you still have some room to go. Personally, I don't even get the chronograph out until I have nailed down the primer, powder charge, and seating depth a load shoots best with. I'm not going to go changing a load just to make the numbers on a chrono look pretty.
Thanks, I've been using GM205m match primers so far. Seems like 21.7 shoots the smallest groups. I just got this chronograph so I was eager to try it out and see what kind of data I got with it. Was surprised that the 3 groups weren't closer in SD and ES. If I could consistently get results like the 2nd string (sd 8.7 & es 19) I'd be very happy. First time in almost 30 years of handloading I've had a chrono to check out. I got it because 2 350 Legend rifles I'm working with seem hot with Hodgdons Lil'Gun data even at starting loads. I've always let the groups on paper tell me what to load and shoot but these 350 Legends are scaring me a little. I asked for a little help interpreting the numbers cause well I hadn't seen any chrono data before and was wondering why 3 groups shot 15 minutes apart with the same exact loads didn't do better. Fishing for knowledge I guess! I agree i wouldn't change a good shooting load to get numbers either, was just wondering why a seemingly good load didn't have good numbers. With the help I've got today I realize a load that shoots small groups doesn't necessarily have good numbers. I was also under the impression that the chrono would help to find a good load but I guess most folks (like yourself) find a shooter first then check the chrono for an fps to feed their ballistic solver.

I've learned a lot today and very happy with all you fellows that have helped!! Appreciate it!!!


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Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
I see guys fussing around with their fancy chrono's at the range. So much in fact it messes with their shooting. One newbie handloader (you see a lot of newbies getting this kind of schidt because they are led to believe they absolutely need one) came to me last year at my clubs range and asked why his groups looked like schidt when his SD's were single digits. First I said, well you have that damn thing hanging off of your barrel, second it's a Christensen Arms, plus you think you need fancy azzed dies. And "Oh, by the way why didn't you come to the "precision" rifle shoot that you asked for at the last meeting????"
Well I did fine for around 30 years without one but this year I got 2 350 Legends for southern Michigan hunting. When I started load testing the Lil'Gun data from Hodgdon seemed awful hot, even the starting load. It made me nervous enough to spend money I probably shouldn't have to make sure I wasn't getting into dangerous territory! Never had a problem with published data before and the same Hodgdon data for H110 was fine. Anyway, I felt I should have one to stay out of trouble now and get accurate fps readings for my ballistic solvers.

Some claim that the Magnetospeed does affect poi but not groups. who knows for sure but I'll definitely find out! Thanks for the reply especially since you seem upset by anything to do with chronographs (simply going by this post of yours) or fancy dies!

Have a great day!

Chrono's are great tools, I use them for checking velocity. I don't really give a chidt about sd's and es's. I work up loads finding OCW and let the rifle tell me what it likes. All that can be seen on the target downrange. If you can't figure that out, I don't know what to tell you... I'm not from the ghetto though. Maybe you guys do it differently down there?? I remember once pissing one of my aeronautical engineer buddies off when he talked me into running some of my loads over his fancy chrono. Wondering why my rifles shot so well/better than his. SD'S were in the single digits. He asked, "tell me what you do for a living again". Wondering how a welder could make better loads than an engineer... Its called working up the best load, based on what your rifle is telling you. One reason I always verify a load with multiple 5 and 10 shot groups. Use a good powder that is not temp sensitive and if you are really anal, use some benchrest primers with that powder... Although, in the Western powder data I have, they don't list a 55gr NBT with that powder in a 223. They do list it for lighter nosler bullets. With the 55gr NBT, I'd be running something like Vihtavuori N135, N120, CFE223 or H335, just to make things simple. And don't listen to the guys that have never ran Nosler "seconds". They don't know what they are talking about.. They shoot just like firsts..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
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