I knew a guy who witnessed a car accident, he knows CPR and was trying to revive the young man who in the first car. As he was doing his best, two policeman arrived and took over for him. He said when he looked up at the two LEOs as they were running up to him, he swore that the man he was trying to help was running with them. Said he glanced down and then back up, and there were only the two LEOs and nobody else. The young man passed in less than a minute after that.
I personally believe that there are many dimensions. And that time as we perceive it is merely an illusion. That is to say we can only experience it one way. Other being might be able to move back and forth on a timeline. God can see all of time and all of creation laid out before him. He can see everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen laid out before him as the great NOW. Thus it is all happening simultaneously to him. And perhaps, other beings as well are more perceptive of this and able to move in other dimensions more freely. I believe the spirit world is largely just that, another dimension with beings who inhabit it like we inhabit ours.
I quite agree. As for the bolded piece, this is why He announced himself to Moses as "I AM".
Eternal beings that are not tethered to the unilateral time-stream of the universe, unlike we humans in this corporeal life, have a hard time grasping this. Other eternal beings who have never been tied to the physical universe as we are can presumably experience eternity as a single moment; so it's certainly possible that a human spirit that has been released by death may appear to be "stuck" to a place like a haunted house or a battlefield. Whether it's a different "dimension" or simply a different viewpoint of one cohesive universe is, to my mind, not a big distinction.
I think this depiction of the Universe is fairly accurate. God occupies all the space in the image, especially the space outside of the Universe. Hence, He sees the entire thing at once.
The Bible clearly states that there is no communication between the living and the dead. None.
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Well, it's not quite as clear as all that...
If you check out I Samuel 28, when Saul conned the witch of Endor to conjure up the spirit of Samuel, the scripture clearly states that it was the spirit of Samuel himself, i.e., a "ghost". So it's pretty hard to unequivocally state that the Bible says there is no communication between the living and dead. It may not be a common thing, and by scripture it is certainly a forbidden thing to do, but the example of Saul and Samuel seems to indicate it is indeed possible.
Now, I've heard all kinds of convoluted logic by preachers saying that it wasn't Samuel, it was a demon, or "a gods coming out of the earth" in the witch's words, but the scripture passage states pretty clearly that, yep, it was Samuel's ghost and nobody else. So I'm inclined to take the scripture at its face value.
But I also believe that the spiritual world, as part of the time-space continuum, is far more complex than most religious people give credit to. C.S. Lewis touched on this in his writings on several occasions, in The Great Divorce, in Mere Christianity, in his science fiction trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandria, and That Hideous Strength), and of course in his Narnia series. Aquinas touches on it briefly in parts of his Summa Theologica, but I'm danged if I can give you a citation for that, it's 40 years since I cracked Summa.
Speaking of communication with the dead - maybe this is a necropost? Anyway - I figured I'd throw in . . . maybe someone else's two cents . . . because I find this subject interesting. I've read a bit from Mike Heiser's work over the years - he's a biblical scholar with expertise in a bunch of ancient languages and Ancient Near East religion, and some related subjects. For what it's worth, at least as a layman, I find his arguments compelling and more to the point, relevant to this part of this thread.
The writers of the Old Testament - in line with general Ancient Near East religious thought - conceived of different planes of existence in a kind of cosmic geography - one of which was inhabited by entities referenced by the term "elohim". The term primarily referred not to the attributes of an entity, but to it's proper plane of existence - in this case, the spirit world. Angels, demons, spirits (of the dead), the gods, and Yahweh were all understood as properly being in that plane of existence, so that they were all types of "elohim." (This is outside the scope of this summary, but for what it's worth, "Yahweh" would have been sort of 'species unique' among the more generic "elohim" classification.) That these entities were all properly inhabitants of the spirit world doesn't preclude them from interaction with the physical world - so for example the Old Testament talks about angels interacting with humans (Joshua 5:13-15,) an evil spirit harassing King Saul (1 Samuel 16:14), and more relevant to this discussion, the spirit of Samuel. The problem with interacting with the spirits of the dead was that it was a kind of violation of your proper plane of existence (or maybe a violation of the rules governing that sort of interaction?).
My thoughts on the matter might be as follows:
Rock Chuck - from what I can see, several passages in the Old Testament seem to back up this view of spirits of the dead - that one could find a way to communicate with them, but within the context of Israelite religion, one definitely should not do so (see Leviticus 20:5-7, Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 18:10-14, Isaiah 8:19-20, 1 Samuel 28).
DocRocket - in light of your quote about preachers talking about the passage in Samuel (gods coming out of the earth, etc), you might find the article I linked to be an interesting read. In summary, the spirit of Samuel was recognized by the medium (or, apparently, in a more accurate translation, the 'mistress of the ghost' or something along those lines) as an "elohim" type entity (a 'god' coming out of the earth); this being is then recognized by Saul as Samuel.
A few years back ole Boudreaux went to pickup little Boudreaux at that big school in Baton Rouge. Lil Boo was not ready so ole Boo was wondering around campus and ended up in the auditorium. A man started speaking and Boudreaux being a county boy found this interesting.
The speaker first asked who believes in ghost? Nearly everybody raised their hands, including Boudreaux. He then asked has anybody seen a ghost? Still plenty of hands were in the air and Boudreaux was still waiving his arm. The next question was have you talked to a ghost? Boudreaux and just a few others raised there hands.
The speaker said the next question is a little personal but who in here has had sex with a ghost? Only ole Boudreaux raised his hand. The speaker invited him on stage, got real close, and asked what was it like to have sex with a ghost.
Boudreaux looked at him and replied, I am so embarrassed. I thought you were saying goats.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Progressives are the most open minded, tolerant, and inclusive people on the planet, as long as you agree with everything they say, and do exactly as you're told.
I'm getting this creepy feeling that I have seen this exact thread before.
That's just a glitch in the Matrix.
Progressives are the most open minded, tolerant, and inclusive people on the planet, as long as you agree with everything they say, and do exactly as you're told.
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