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Trapdoor. The Savages had the lever action. True, but few people realize the superiority of the trapdoor over the Henry in Indian warfare… Could you elaborate, please. The military has a standard by which they choose weapons, tactics, armor and all sorts of things as they prepare for battle. That was true then, as it is today. During the Indian Wars, the army tested firearms in regards to how well they would perform with the least amount of breakdowns or failures. They did have an acceptable rate that would still allow a less than perfect firearm become the issued weapon. The idea of fighting plains Indians was built around fighting in a skirmish line of troopers several feet apart and firing in a battery with sustained fire of 8-10 rounds per minute and as every trooper would be firing in a separate cycle, the skirmish line became a force to be effective against Indian attacks. The 45-70 was also a longer range rifle than a Winchester 1866 or Henry repeater. Once a repeating rifle is empty, it takes enough time to reload, that the person using that rifle is out of the fight for a sustained amount of time as everyone else is firing their guns empty. Consider the range and energy of the 45-70 and it becomes vastly superior in its lethality because a 45-70 can also put down a horse. Comanche was Miles Keogh’s horse and sustained 7-10 small arms wounds and survived the battle. He would never have survived that many 45-70 wounds. If you can put an Indian’s horse down, you can take an Indian out of the fight. So when you see where people comment about Custer being outgunned by the Indians with repeating rifles, you can tell how much they don’t know about the decisions made by the army in regards to how they equipped their cavalry. Custer wasn’t outgunned, he was out numbered and beaten by superior tactics in a setting that can’t be calculated in a board room somewhere that will see every condition that could be met in the field. Correct, from what I could see on my visits to the LBH Custer's battalion was caught and pinned down in a place where they couldn't take advantage of the superior firepower of the Springfield. I'm sure this fight was the first for many of the troopers and panic set in making disciplined fire impossible .
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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With that many Indians I’m not so sure a Gatling gun would’ve made much a difference. I had read somewhere that they had difficulty traveling with the Gatling guns. The parts would constantly come loose from the packs and cause the teamsters to stop and repack/lash them up again. As for the Springfields, the one downside was the copper cases would cause jams which negated the speed at which they could be fired. I believe they were using the 45/50 which was a down loaded 45/70 for use with the carbines It was actually downloaded to 45-55 and had a paper wrap inside the case that took up room inside the case to keep the case full of powder. Copper cases did stick once the rifle got hot and dirty, but battlefield forensics show that the failure rate was around 2%. If you are one of the 2% it could be catastrophic, but it wasn’t the cause of the battle to be won by Indians. Because of the stuck cases, they put a trap door in the butt plate and put a cleaning rod in it to protect the shooter from the eventuality of a stuck case causing the death of the shooter. They also went to using brass for the cases…
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Custer’s men should have had Garands. Vastly superior to the spray and pray lever actions of the day. I believe, for the most part, they didn't even have those. I think the standard arm was a Trapdoor, but I could be wrong. I'm not in a position to debate the ins and outs of that battle, I'll defer to those that have a deeper knowledge of it. Well...me and Viking are experts. Okay, Then that'll be MR. Jim Conrad and MR. Viking.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Trapdoor. The Savages had the lever action. True, but few people realize the superiority of the trapdoor over the Henry in Indian warfare… Could you elaborate, please. The military has a standard by which they choose weapons, tactics, armor and all sorts of things as they prepare for battle. That was true then, as it is today. During the Indian Wars, the army tested firearms in regards to how well they would perform with the least amount of breakdowns or failures. They did have an acceptable rate that would still allow a less than perfect firearm become the issued weapon. The idea of fighting plains Indians was built around fighting in a skirmish line of troopers several feet apart and firing in a battery with sustained fire of 8-10 rounds per minute and as every trooper would be firing in a separate cycle, the skirmish line became a force to be effective against Indian attacks. The 45-70 was also a longer range rifle than a Winchester 1866 or Henry repeater. Once a repeating rifle is empty, it takes enough time to reload, that the person using that rifle is out of the fight for a sustained amount of time as everyone else is firing their guns empty. Consider the range and energy of the 45-70 and it becomes vastly superior in its lethality because a 45-70 can also put down a horse. Comanche was Miles Keogh’s horse and sustained 7-10 small arms wounds and survived the battle. He would never have survived that many 45-70 wounds. If you can put an Indian’s horse down, you can take an Indian out of the fight. So when you see where people comment about Custer being outgunned by the Indians with repeating rifles, you can tell how much they don’t know about the decisions made by the army in regards to how they equipped their cavalry. Custer wasn’t outgunned, he was out numbered and beaten by superior tactics in a setting that can’t be calculated in a board room somewhere that will see every condition that could be met in the field. Correct, from what I could see on my visits to the LBH Custer's battalion was caught and pinned down in a place where they couldn't take advantage of the superior firepower of the Springfield. I'm sure this fight was the first for many of the troopers and panic set in making disciplined fire impossible . I don’t believe Custer ever thought he was licked, I could be wrong. There is evidence of his advance on the village to capture the non-combatants, but was repelled back up on last stand hill. At some point, he sustained 2 mortal wounds, that would end any cohesive line of command that would certainly have wrecked any chance of survival. Regardless of the distaste for Custer by those that didn’t like him, he was a most capable battlefield commander and if anyone could get you through a mess, he would be your guy, but that would end with his death…
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I recently visited the memorial site of the LBH, man, that place will give you the chills.
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Some other interesting reading is about the Yellowstone Campaign. It was somewhat prior to this battle. Custer had problems with the Indians
Then also.
Possibly Shrapnel can comment on the battles of that campaign as well.
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Some other interesting reading is about the Yellowstone Campaign. It was somewhat prior to this battle. Custer had problems with the Indians
Then also.
Possibly Shrapnel can comment on the battles of that campaign as well. There were several expeditions into Montana and the Black Hills from 1872-1874. There were surveys along the Yellowstone to find where a railroad could be put to get supplies to Bozeman and Virginia City as the Bozeman trail was too dangerous to travel due to Indian conflicts. There was even a Bozeman supported group of so called miners sent to the Bighorn in 1874 to get in fights with the Indians and hopefully gain enough support for the US military to put forts along the Bozeman trail for safety. They were funded by Bozeman business men and were acting as if they were miners to make it appear as a mining exploration, it they were heavily armed and had a canon and a howitzer to fight the Indians as they traveled east. I have seen an actual letter from an Army Captain sent to his wife from the earliest expedition on the railroad survey, and the Captain told of how the Indians tried to lure them into an ambush and kill them. The army didn’t fall for the plot, they did have a parley with the Indians and he remarked how a particular Indian with a new black hat, representing the 7 Sioux tribes, by the name of Sitting Bull, and he was declaring war in the United States for their encroachment into Indian territory. How letters like this survive, always amazes me…
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" ... Deploying a Gatling gun isn’t like a ma deuce on a tripod that would allow you to strafe a battlefield like we see done in the movies. That is another fault with perception and how many people base reality on what they see in the movies." You mean like in the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales? L.W.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
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Anyone who’s been to the battlefield have any supernatural experiences to share?
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547 Join date 3/09/2001
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Anyone who’s been to the battlefield have any supernatural experiences to share? Never been close to that area Been to the Chief Bowles monument on the Battle of the Neches site. Had one of those everything-got-totally-quiet moments and decided to leave
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Anyone who’s been to the battlefield have any supernatural experiences to share? I spent a whole day walking the battlefield and I could "feel" the ghosts. Didn't see any.
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Anyone who’s been to the battlefield have any supernatural experiences to share? I spent a whole day walking the battlefield and I could "feel" the ghosts. Didn't see any. This fascinates me. I’ve heard it described as a “psychic echo,” the remnant of an incredibly strong emotional event. Doesn’t get much more stressful than literal life and death events. P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547 Join date 3/09/2001
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Standing in the Alamo chapel always makes my eyes water.
" It ain't dead.As long as there's one cowboy taking care of one cow,it ain't dead ! " Monte Walsh
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