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I recall my days as PD armorer and Glock told us not to shoot cast bullets. Their rifling wasn't designed for it.
In all the years that I was there and we shot Glock 22, I never saw an issue with them. But we only shot factory ammo and jacketed bullets

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Originally Posted by WStrayer
I recall my days as PD armorer and Glock told us not to shoot cast bullets. Their rifling wasn't designed for it.
In all the years that I was there and we shot Glock 22, I never saw an issue with them. But we only shot factory ammo and jacketed bullets

What is it about Glock rifling that makes it unsuited to cast bullets?

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Believe Glock uses polygonal rifling.

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Can you explain why polygonal rifling makes Glocks unsuitable for cast bullets?


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My understanding is the recoil spring has very little to do with the timing of the slide and barrel unlocking. The bullet drags the barrel forward as it leaves the barrel and the locking lugs determine when the breech unlocks from the barrel. Slow motion video clearly shows bullets leaving the barrel before slide movement. Spring rates do more to determine how fast the slide goes forward; my experience is the rearward timing does not change much with full power loads. Full power loads just slam the slide back regardless of spring rates. I think the G20 comes with a 17lb spring, I have an STI 10mm that has a 24lb spring, a 10mm Kimber with a 18lb spring, and a DW 10mm commander that I think has an 18lb spring as well. All function, all different spring weights. And yes, different guns.

My understanding of the polygonal rifling is that it lacks the sharp edges of traditional lands and grooves and does not grab soft lead bullets well. So the bullets sort of get mushed forward leading the barrel and not spinning properly. Hard cast lead reportedly does not have that problem.

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Originally Posted by ldholton
Yes , Glock 30 case ruptured cost mag & release

Can't speak to the 40's or the nines (had both, but no KKM barrels for either), but the KKM G30 barrel I had, had quite a bit more support than the factory barrel.

I ran light 45 Super in it with no issue.

Had a picture, but apparently tossed it.

Jerry


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Originally Posted by jerrywoodswalker
Originally Posted by ldholton
Yes , Glock 30 case ruptured cost mag & release

Can't speak to the 40's or the nines (had both, but no KKM barrels for either), but the KKM G30 barrel I had, had quite a bit more support than the factory barrel.

I ran light 45 Super in it with no issue.

Had a picture, but apparently tossed it.

Jerry
My instance I believe was a weak case..

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Originally Posted by Mountain10mm
My understanding is the recoil spring has very little to do with the timing of the slide and barrel unlocking. The bullet drags the barrel forward as it leaves the barrel and the locking lugs determine when the breech unlocks from the barrel. Slow motion video clearly shows bullets leaving the barrel before slide movement. Spring rates do more to determine how fast the slide goes forward; my experience is the rearward timing does not change much with full power loads. Full power loads just slam the slide back regardless of spring rates. I think the G20 comes with a 17lb spring, I have an STI 10mm that has a 24lb spring, a 10mm Kimber with a 18lb spring, and a DW 10mm commander that I think has an 18lb spring as well. All function, all different spring weights. And yes, different guns.

My understanding of the polygonal rifling is that it lacks the sharp edges of traditional lands and grooves and does not grab soft lead bullets well. So the bullets sort of get mushed forward leading the barrel and not spinning properly. Hard cast lead reportedly does not have that problem.

I understand the logic of soft lead bullets as you have described, but in describing cast bullets I am presuming hard cast bullets. Maybe I’m off base in making this assumption? In a broad statement attributed to Glock technicians that recommends no cast bullets I would certainly presume that includes hard cast bullets. If this is so, the question of why this is a problem remains unanswered.

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Quote
the question of why this is a problem remains unanswered.

The question has been answered many times. The answer is that in worst case examples Glock barrels have opened up like a flower into multiple petals. In best case examples no problems. Murphy being what he is to assume best case is the proverbial ass of you and me. The Glock factory warning in its present form is based on bitter experience and is by no means hypothetical over-concern. It's not just worry over lawyers and lawsuits it's observed results. The internet is full of discussion some of it well informed as at Glocktalk and at Castboolits. I wasn't there but I am inclined to credit worst case reports with one magazine full of soft (swaged?) lead in a normal capacity magazine and so leading was not observed and cleaned because the shooting session was still in progress with only a few shots fired. Then again at least in normal barrels my own best tempered cast bullets with ample beeswax/alox did not build up lead in barrels with hundreds and thousands of H&G 130 bullets with 3.5 grains of bullseye in a 1911 wad gun. - smoked some though. I've never fired much lead in a Glock.

Notice that in general bullets fired in a revolver will show some distortion, sometimes called "skid marks" from already being in forward motion as the bullet enters the rifling and heavy for caliber cast bullets will show often similar distortion in semi-automatic pistols with conventional rifling.


Quote
1. Does Glock recommend against using lead bullets in its firearms?

Glock’s Response: Yes.

2. Will using lead bullets void the warranty of a Glock?

Glock’s Response: Yes.

3. Does Glock differentiate between different cast bullets?

Glock’s Response: No.

That’s straightforward but it doesn’t really give us the “why."

We asked Glock for a more detailed response and its representatives were kind enough to tell us the following:

"Lead bullets have varying degrees of hardness that can lead to fouling many different types of barrels in today modern firearms. As opposed to jacketed bullets, that are designed for a more consistent spin and trajectory due to the bullets interaction with the hammer forged polygonal and octagonal barrel rifling, lead bullets have a tendency to drag through the barrel before they ‘catch’ and start their spin motion in the barrel. This single action causes lead residue buildup in the barrel if not properly cared for. Over time, this buildup of residue can reduce the bullet to barrel fit and cause extreme pressure buildup that could cause a catastrophic failure if the barrel is not properly cleaned and cared for. Following the GLOCK recommended guidelines on ammunition usage and the recommended cleaning schedule is required."

The Second Opinion
Mike McNett at DOUBLETAP Ammo loads more 10 mm than anyone on the planet. Two of his 10 mm loads, the 200-grain. WFNGC, and the 230-grain WFNGC, use lead bullets. Mike casts his own bullets to a hardness of on the 21 Brinell scale and uses gas checks. These loads are specifically made for use in Glocks and DOUBLETAP sells them as such.

Here’s Mike’s answer to he question of why his lead bullets are safe in Glocks:

“The gas check keeps the gas from going by the bullet and searing the lead into the rifling. That’s how you get into trouble with Glocks, it’s not necessarily the lead rubbing on the rifling, it is plating that nice smooth polygonal rifling with molten lead. The base of the bullet obturates, that’s where the lead liquefies a little bit and seals it. If you have a gas check, it’s just like a little jacket on the back, it seals it from doing that.”

My Experience
I have used DOUBLETAP’s lead ammo in my Glock 20 and have detected no sign of leading. I’m pretty sure that the aftermarket trigger I’m using has voided my warranty anyway, so that’s not an issue for me. I have made the decision to use certain lead bullets of known quality and hardness in my Glock as an informed professional, knowing that the manufacturer recommends against the practice. If you have any doubts, have an aftermarket barrel designed for use with lead bullets installed in your handgun.

The Ruling
Glock makes it clear that they don’t want you using lead in their guns and their reasoning will keep you out of trouble if you don’t know pure lead from linotype. Not all lead bullets are created equal. If you do make the decision to use lead in a Glock factory barrel, be sure that you use a bullet of sufficient hardness that uses a gas check. Inspect the barrel often for signs of leading and clean your barrel and chamber more often than I do.
Keith Wood writing for the NRA. Little enough respect as I have for the NRA in today's world the Dope Bag can still be a useful resource for members with specific questions.

Last edited by ClarkEMyers; 09/03/22. Reason: add skid marks language
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I might add that although I have no knowledge and can't speak to the Glock the 1911 is a locked breech pistol and can be safely if abusively fired with no return spring at all.

The sole Glock kaboom I have any personal knowledge of was no harm done. Reloads with no other issues in the lot. The collective best guess was that a previously guppy case - possibly multiple times guppy and resized - was work hardened and weakened and the erased guppy portion of the case happened to align just so with the feed ramp relief this time through.

Last edited by ClarkEMyers; 09/03/22. Reason: typo
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The issue is stripping at land engagement, posted above. Harder reduces stripping, a check reduces it even more. If the engagement strips at the base, whether you can see it on a recovered bullet, no matter how hard the bullet is, will still cause layered leading. The harder the better is always good insurance.

This is an issue not only in Glocks, but its exacerbated in a Glock due to the shallowness of the rifling and rounded nature of the leading edge. Colt rifling, though cut square, is known for pretty shallow and narrow rifling.

The diameter of the bullet also plays a role. A smaller diameter bullet has a tendency to strip engagement easier than a larger diameter due to less area that moves during the "load" and displacement of engagement. As fat as will function and chamber provides more insurance, but its a good idea to know how the bullet fits before you have problems. A lot of commercial lead bullets are sized to function in everyone's gun and generally are in nominal, smaller diameters that reflect jacketed bullet sizes. Most of the time this isn't an issue.


The rifling edge itself can create a stripping gap if its uneven in thickness. The base can be distorted by a wider rifling area, then encounter a smaller width rifling; instant gap on the bullet base. Pretty rare with modern machining, but it doesn't take much.

Its wise to stack the cards in your favor and most people don't have problems with hard cast lead in Glocks if they know what to look for beforehand and make sure lead fouling isn't an issue when shooting. The equipment today also tends to be pretty forgiving, another reason most don't see any issues.

Anyone who has seen revolver bullets and seen the "skidding" that takes place from engagement to bullet base knows what goes on.
An FYI, jacketed bullets, being harder than even the hardest cast lead, will still skid, it just doesn't create the fouling issues when it does.

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Originally Posted by ClarkEMyers
Quote
the question of why this is a problem remains unanswered.

The question has been answered many times. The answer is that in worst case examples Glock barrels have opened up like a flower into multiple petals. In best case examples no problems. Murphy being what he is to assume best case is the proverbial ass of you and me. The Glock factory warning in its present form is based on bitter experience and is by no means hypothetical over-concern. It's not just worry over lawyers and lawsuits it's observed results. The internet is full of discussion some of it well informed as at Glocktalk and at Castboolits. I wasn't there but I am inclined to credit worst case reports with one magazine full of soft (swaged?) lead in a normal capacity magazine and so leading was not observed and cleaned because the shooting session was still in progress with only a few shots fired. Then again at least in normal barrels my own best tempered cast bullets with ample beeswax/alox did not build up lead in barrels with hundreds and thousands of H&G 130 bullets with 3.5 grains of bullseye in a 1911 wad gun. - smoked some though. I've never fired much lead in a Glock.

Notice that in general bullets fired in a revolver will show some distortion, sometimes called "skid marks" from already being in forward motion as the bullet enters the rifling and heavy for caliber cast bullets will show often similar distortion in semi-automatic pistols with conventional rifling.


Quote
1. Does Glock recommend against using lead bullets in its firearms?

Glock’s Response: Yes.

2. Will using lead bullets void the warranty of a Glock?

Glock’s Response: Yes.

3. Does Glock differentiate between different cast bullets?

Glock’s Response: No.

That’s straightforward but it doesn’t really give us the “why."

We asked Glock for a more detailed response and its representatives were kind enough to tell us the following:

"Lead bullets have varying degrees of hardness that can lead to fouling many different types of barrels in today modern firearms. As opposed to jacketed bullets, that are designed for a more consistent spin and trajectory due to the bullets interaction with the hammer forged polygonal and octagonal barrel rifling, lead bullets have a tendency to drag through the barrel before they ‘catch’ and start their spin motion in the barrel. This single action causes lead residue buildup in the barrel if not properly cared for. Over time, this buildup of residue can reduce the bullet to barrel fit and cause extreme pressure buildup that could cause a catastrophic failure if the barrel is not properly cleaned and cared for. Following the GLOCK recommended guidelines on ammunition usage and the recommended cleaning schedule is required."

The Second Opinion
Mike McNett at DOUBLETAP Ammo loads more 10 mm than anyone on the planet. Two of his 10 mm loads, the 200-grain. WFNGC, and the 230-grain WFNGC, use lead bullets. Mike casts his own bullets to a hardness of on the 21 Brinell scale and uses gas checks. These loads are specifically made for use in Glocks and DOUBLETAP sells them as such.

Here’s Mike’s answer to he question of why his lead bullets are safe in Glocks:

“The gas check keeps the gas from going by the bullet and searing the lead into the rifling. That’s how you get into trouble with Glocks, it’s not necessarily the lead rubbing on the rifling, it is plating that nice smooth polygonal rifling with molten lead. The base of the bullet obturates, that’s where the lead liquefies a little bit and seals it. If you have a gas check, it’s just like a little jacket on the back, it seals it from doing that.”

My Experience
I have used DOUBLETAP’s lead ammo in my Glock 20 and have detected no sign of leading. I’m pretty sure that the aftermarket trigger I’m using has voided my warranty anyway, so that’s not an issue for me. I have made the decision to use certain lead bullets of known quality and hardness in my Glock as an informed professional, knowing that the manufacturer recommends against the practice. If you have any doubts, have an aftermarket barrel designed for use with lead bullets installed in your handgun.

The Ruling
Glock makes it clear that they don’t want you using lead in their guns and their reasoning will keep you out of trouble if you don’t know pure lead from linotype. Not all lead bullets are created equal. If you do make the decision to use lead in a Glock factory barrel, be sure that you use a bullet of sufficient hardness that uses a gas check. Inspect the barrel often for signs of leading and clean your barrel and chamber more often than I do.
Keith Wood writing for the NRA. Little enough respect as I have for the NRA in today's world the Dope Bag can still be a useful resource for members with specific questions.

Good post.


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Glad that you're ok and still managed to get the caribou.

My only 10mm/40 is a blackhawk. But I do have 9mm and 380 glocks, so thanks for posting.

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Why did Glock select poly rifling? Is it a quicker spinner upper or something? What’s the benefit over standard tongue & groove.


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I had one of the first 10 mm’s, like back in 93.

It was the middle of winter when I was going to test some loads (200 grain XTP). Colder than a bitch outside. Anyway the first shot was a click. I thought I forgot to chamber a round. I had doubled up on ear protection( plugs and muffs)., so I never heard anything suspicious.

Anyway I racked the slide and fired over a rest. At the shot, i though it recoiled a touch much. The target had an oblong hole in it. Turns out it was two bullet holes, one on top of the other.

After the snow pile had melted in the spring I found those two bullets, l kept them for years as reminder and conversation piece. So I had shot 400 grains out the barrel. The pistol was totally fine.

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Originally Posted by viking
I had one of the first 10 mm’s, like back in 93.

It was the middle of winter when I was going to test some loads (200 grain XTP). Colder than a bitch outside. Anyway the first shot was a click. I thought I forgot to chamber a round. I had doubled up on ear protection( plugs and muffs)., so I never heard anything suspicious.

Anyway I racked the slide and fired over a rest. At the shot, i though it recoiled a touch much. The target had an oblong hole in it. Turns out it was two bullet holes, one on top of the other.

After the snow pile had melted in the spring I found those two bullets, l kept them for years as reminder and conversation piece. So I had shot 400 grains out the barrel. The pistol was totally fine.

And you did not NOTICE it throwing an empty shell out???????


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Originally Posted by viking
I had one of the first 10 mm’s, like back in 93.

It was the middle of winter when I was going to test some loads (200 grain XTP). Colder than a bitch outside. Anyway the first shot was a click. I thought I forgot to chamber a round. I had doubled up on ear protection( plugs and muffs)., so I never heard anything suspicious.

Anyway I racked the slide and fired over a rest. At the shot, i though it recoiled a touch much. The target had an oblong hole in it. Turns out it was two bullet holes, one on top of the other.

After the snow pile had melted in the spring I found those two bullets, l kept them for years as reminder and conversation piece. So I had shot 400 grains out the barrel. The pistol was totally fine.

That sounds like something I would do. LOL


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Mmmm... Twice I have seen guys firing a double action revolver in PPC matches experience a squib load which only drove the bullet up into the barrel and it stuck there. Then not noticing and being focused on shooting fast double action the shooter fired another round and either stacked the bullets in the barrel or shot the first one out. I have never seen that with a semi auto. I would guess there is too much that goes wrong with an auto pistol and the gun malfunctions or the shooter notices and doesn't fire the second round.


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Dennis,

First off, Im glad you are ok.

2nd, 7 something grains of LS with a 180 cast lead bullet as you know is not a real high pressure load. You should have been fine. No aspersions being cast on your reloading abilities but sometimes stuff happens-I would pull remaining loads. Maybe there was a double charge?

Were your loads in new brass or previously fired?

One thing Ive done on my G20 is to go to a 6" KKM barrel. It gives me around 100-150 more fps than the factory Glock barrel depending on bullet and load. This is with factory ammo and my handloads. So without using higher pressure loads, I get more velocity which is why some guys jack up their reloads. Again, your stated load seems reasonable and Im not inferring your load was intentionally a "hot" load. Let us know if you find anything out as to what may have caused this.

Regards,

Manny

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Originally Posted by mannyspd1
Dennis,

First off, Im glad you are ok.

2nd, 7 something grains of LS with a 180 cast lead bullet as you know is not a real high pressure load. You should have been fine. No aspersions being cast on your reloading abilities but sometimes stuff happens-I would pull remaining loads. Maybe there was a double charge?

Were your loads in new brass or previously fired?

One thing Ive done on my G20 is to go to a 6" KKM barrel. It gives me around 100-150 more fps than the factory Glock barrel depending on bullet and load. This is with factory ammo and my handloads. So without using higher pressure loads, I get more velocity which is why some guys jack up their reloads. Again, your stated load seems reasonable and Im not inferring your load was intentionally a "hot" load. Let us know if you find anything out as to what may have caused this.

Regards,

Manny


If you are getting 100 to 150 fps more velocity in the new barrel then your loads are certainly developing more pressure in the new barrel.
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