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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Most semi autos were not designed to feed anything but FMJ (ball) ammunition, which had long been known to have a very poor track record for stopping people. Revolver ammo was not limited to FMJ and even using older designs such as the +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP ammunition produced much better results in the field.

That in addition to the fact that departments were dealing with institutionalized thinking. Change is incredibly slow. Most people that are in charge of policy change are older and have been in a position or on a department for a long time and suffer from the "Well if it was good enough for me" syndrome and confirmation bias. Look how long it took to get things like night sights or flashlights on handguns. Today there are still a great many agencies that will not allow police officers to have a flashlight on a handgun or a rifle.

I worked for an agency that had a dumbfugg of an uneducated twit in charge of the firearms program that was adamant about never having lights on rifles or handguns. It took me being involved in a shootout in a darkened building where the badguy had knocked out the lights and I was trying to balance a light in one hand and a rifle in the other to cause the department to change.

Consider the liability of trying to take a hostage rescue shot with an iron sighted rifle in the dark, holding it one handed, while balancing a flashlight, hoping you don't shoot the hostage. All because the guy in charge is stuck in the 1980s and has deliberately handicapped you.

Change is slow. Not due to technology, but due to incompetence of those in charge. That is why change is so slow in law enforcement.

I recall a national news story in the early 90s maybe late 80s where the LAPD was finally allowed to use hollowpoints instead of ball ammo in their revolvers. Now that was probably institutional and probably political.

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My uncle was a deputy sheriff in L.A. county. He was one of many involved in putting down the Watts riot.

He carried a 38 Special S&W with target sights and 8” barrel.

He said that the court system made the police look like the bad guys if they carried a “magnum”.

He felt the ammo he used was close to 357 in power. Super-vel if I remember right.


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Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
In the early-mid 80's in S. Florida a police department had recently been issued new DA/SA S&W wonder nines, I don't recall the specific model.

Jump forward a couple of months to a briefing about juvenile crime with a room full of officers. One officer in the back, deciding to be a smart-ass, removed the magazine from his new semi-auto, jumped up and said, "I'll show you how to handle juvenile crime!", pointed the gun at the front of the room and pulled the trigger while yelling "bang! bang!", thereby firing the round left in the chamber into the wall a few feet to one side of the lecturer.

After the hubbub died down the lecturer was curious about where the bullet had ended up so he went around a hall to the spot he figured would be right behind the briefing room. It was a women's bathroom. He knocked and on receiving no answer opened the door and went in to find a woman slumped in a stall, dead, shot in the back of the head through the wall.

That's a true story. This has nothing to do with why it took so long for police officers to start carrying semi-autos.


I also have an anecdote from the Dania police department around the same time frame, early 1980's, about an officer who accidentally shot two police cars with his service revolver within the span of a week, from inside the car.

This may have happened. But S&W SA/DA auto loaders from the 39 through the 3rd gen guns had a mag safety and will not fire with the mag removed.

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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Bugger
Because semi-autos in general suck. The lack of training by the police force - that is they can't hit stuff caused the need for high-capacity magazines. If they could shoot straight there would have been no need for the [bleep] semi-autos.

The saddest thing about dumb ass fugking comments like this is that the concept of "fire and maneuver" was developed between WWI and WWII and was the basis of an increased ammo capacity in combination of a higher rate of fire than could be achieved by a bolt action.

In other words, it's 1910ish type thinking.

Nope moving to high capacity [bleep] semi-autos is the same thinking that got so many Marines killed in Vietnam when they were forced to carry the high capacity worthless M-16’s.

Make up for lack of training and lack of being able to hit anything with more bullets. 50,000 bullets shot for every Vietcong killed.

My brothers who went in the Army instead of the Marines said their training with the M-16’s were a joke.

I don’t have to pull the trigger 20 times to hit something!
But for those that can’t hit squat “Spray and Pray”.

You can have your plastic pieces of junk. No thanks for me.

Last edited by Bugger; 08/31/22.

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Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Bugger
Because semi-autos in general suck. The lack of training by the police force - that is they can't hit stuff caused the need for high-capacity magazines. If they could shoot straight there would have been no need for the [bleep] semi-autos.

The saddest thing about dumb ass fugking comments like this is that the concept of "fire and maneuver" was developed between WWI and WWII and was the basis of an increased ammo capacity in combination of a higher rate of fire than could be achieved by a bolt action.

In other words, it's 1910ish type thinking.

Nope moving to high capacity [bleep] semi-autos is the same thinking that got so many Marines killed in Vietnam when they were forced to carry the high capacity worthless M-16’s.

Make up for lack of training and lack of being able to hit anything with more bullets. 50,000 bullets shot for every Vietcong killed.

My brothers who went in the Army instead of the Marines said their training with the M-16’s were a joke.

You can have your plastic pieces of junk. No thanks for me.
Just stop.

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Originally Posted by Bugger
My uncle was a deputy sheriff in L.A. county. He was one of many involved in putting down the Watts riot.

He carried a 38 Special S&W with target sights and 8” barrel.

He said that the court system made the police look like the bad guys if they carried a “magnum”.

He felt the ammo he used was close to 357 in power. Super-vel if I remember right.
Yeah, I remember reading the articles about Super-Vel in the 1970s.

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Originally Posted by TheKid
But S&W SA/DA auto loaders from the 39 through the 3rd gen guns had a mag safety and will not fire with the mag removed.
I remember reading that the mag safety allowed them to merely remove the magazine from the gun to transport prisoners into their cells, rather than handing their guns over to be checked in till they leave.

I also remember a case where a cop had the mag safety on his 39 removed, and someone who was handling it wanted to demonstrate to someone else that it could not fire without the mag, and to everyone's shock it went off when he pulled the trigger.

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The other guys high cap mags worked well. So well we used em too.

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Originally Posted by mjac
The other guys high cap mags worked well. So well we used em too.

Hue 1968
That's a Chinese AK. You can tell by the bayonet.

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That's my point.


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Originally Posted by mjac
The other guys high cap mags worked well. So well we used em too.

Hue 1968

I wonder if that Marine in the picture knew the serious risk he was taking, smoking that cigarette? grin

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The c rats the smokes came from were 1946 vintage. Pre warning label. wink


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Question then? Would you feel safer if today's cops toted K frame 357s or Bill Jordan and a Glock?


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Originally Posted by Bugger
My uncle was a deputy sheriff in L.A. county. He was one of many involved in putting down the Watts riot.

He carried a 38 Special S&W with target sights and 8” barrel.

He said that the court system made the police look like the bad guys if they carried a “magnum”.

He felt the ammo he used was close to 357 in power. Super-vel if I remember right.
Poor cops were hamstrung by the establishment way back then, too, I see.
I thank those LEO's that do their job honorably, but I'll be damned if I would do their job given the way they are undercut at every corner.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
That's a Chinese AK. You can tell by the bayonet.

The AK's were reliable. The M-16's should have been made by Daisy - they would have been much better - couldn't have been worse. But the Vietnamese didn't use the spray technique. They actually had rifles they could trust, and they aimed them. When shooting my M-16 at night with tracers, I could see the bullets tumbling - it begged the spray option. There was no faith in our rifles or the ability to hit anything.


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Bugger
My uncle was a deputy sheriff in L.A. county. He was one of many involved in putting down the Watts riot.

He carried a 38 Special S&W with target sights and 8” barrel.

He said that the court system made the police look like the bad guys if they carried a “magnum”.

He felt the ammo he used was close to 357 in power. Super-vel if I remember right.
Yeah, I remember reading the articles about Super-Vel in the 1970s.

I very well remember the 38 Super Vels of the ‘70’s. I had friends in law enforcement that had ricochets off of fairly steep angled windshields and one friend that shot at a fleeing felon (yes forbidden today) …..hitting him in the ass. The bullet hit the felon’s wallet, but didn’t penetrate through. It did however, provide enough pain in the Gluteus Maximus that the felons forward speed was severely hampered! 😉 memtb


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Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Bugger
Because semi-autos in general suck. The lack of training by the police force - that is they can't hit stuff caused the need for high-capacity magazines. If they could shoot straight there would have been no need for the [bleep] semi-autos.

The saddest thing about dumb ass fugking comments like this is that the concept of "fire and maneuver" was developed between WWI and WWII and was the basis of an increased ammo capacity in combination of a higher rate of fire than could be achieved by a bolt action.

In other words, it's 1910ish type thinking.

Nope moving to high capacity [bleep] semi-autos is the same thinking that got so many Marines killed in Vietnam when they were forced to carry the high capacity worthless M-16’s.

Make up for lack of training and lack of being able to hit anything with more bullets. 50,000 bullets shot for every Vietcong killed.

My brothers who went in the Army instead of the Marines said their training with the M-16’s were a joke.

I don’t have to pull the trigger 20 times to hit something!
But for those that can’t hit squat “Spray and Pray”.

You can have your plastic pieces of junk. No thanks for me.


Nope fighting in a jungle in dense foliage using WWII tactics was the biggest problem. Not chrome lining the barrel and chamber in a tropical environment was another problem and early on no cleaning kits to maintain the weapon



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Originally Posted by jwp475
Nope fighting in a jungle in dense foliage using WWII tactics was the biggest problem. Not chrome lining the barrel and chamber in a tropical environment was another problem and early on no cleaning kits to maintain the weapon
You didn't need a cleaning kit because the M16 was a self-cleaning rifle.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by jwp475
Nope fighting in a jungle in dense foliage using WWII tactics was the biggest problem. Not chrome lining the barrel and chamber in a tropical environment was another problem and early on no cleaning kits to maintain the weapon
You didn't need a cleaning kit because the M16 was a self-cleaning rifle.


BS, no chrome lining in a tropical setting produced rust without oil the rust couldn't be helped



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by jwp475
Nope fighting in a jungle in dense foliage using WWII tactics was the biggest problem. Not chrome lining the barrel and chamber in a tropical environment was another problem and early on no cleaning kits to maintain the weapon
You didn't need a cleaning kit because the M16 was a self-cleaning rifle.
BS, no chrome lining in a tropical setting produced rust without oil the rust couldn't be helped
Of course, that was a joke. But that's what the early users were told.

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