Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Anyone take this guy serious?

OK, we're on a different page. I used to read the Ayoob files every month in American Handgunner. A play by play of various shoot outs, interviews with the good guy, the aftermath & repercussions. I don't know how long he was/is with AH but I had a subscription for 30 years. That's a lot of shoot out accounts. My knowledge of him.

I really never paid much attention to his or others articles or vids on tactical advice. There are basics, sure. But if I believe that if a guy survives a shoot out or 5, he can only relate to those, as all can be a new set of problems. Few if any are worth our time.

Years ago I shot with a guy that was USPSA Master in all 5 classes. I was very impressed until I watched him shoot! He was a gamer, all of his classifiers were shot on his home range, every single one & he would cherry pick them & shoot them for a couple of weeks before their local match.
One of his friends told me in Revolver division (my division) that he always selected classifiers that required no reload & that he also shot minor power factor, so all he had to do was shoot "A" zone with his pop gun & he was Master class. I never once saw him enter any match shooting anything but limited or open class, depending on who would show up. There's a world of difference between IDPA & USPSA Master class.
After 10 pages it's pretty clear Ayoob is pretty controversial, except to himself.

Dick

Many people have complained about hunters using their scopes to look for game because their pointing their rifle at something they might not want to shoot. Using a light mounted on your pistol to search is dangerous because you may point your gun at something you don’t want to kill and because it gives your position away to bad guys.

I read many of his articles, but never watched the videos. That said I like the articles.

Another hunter is not a potentially dangerous intruder in your home

I have to give Ayoob at least a little credit for writing In Gravest Extreme. It was the first book I read (35+ years ago) that talked about the legalities (and tactics) of self defense, and it worked well to help teach a then-new wife about the topic. You can argue about many of his specific positions, but he did make me realize, what seems logical and obvious is not necessarily legal.

As far as the controversial "don't use handloads for self defense" Ayoob has produced a couple of specific cases where they caused legal problems. So the risk of handloads causing problems is low, but not zero.

His examples are a hell ova stretch at best to blame handloads

It could be someone you don’t want to shoot and your pointing a gun at them. Like your daughter’s boyfriend.

If he was invited in I'd know, if he invited himself then he is an intruder

In what way did it cause legal problems?

Was it an actual factor in the outcome of the case or was it something the lawyers just talked about?

Yeah, me too. I don't have a lot of experience doing this but enough to know that 1. a light or laser simply lights you up as a target and..
2. Nothing freaks them out like hunting them in the dark.

The best known case is probably New Jersey v. Daniel Bias - which did result in a conviction. I'll let you Google, as it is extensively discussed in several places.

Handloaded ammo will not turn a "good" shooting case into a "bad" shooting case unless the shooter or his counsel are incompetent (which isn't exactly rare). If the shooter doesn't run his mouth, the only real threat is that such a thing can significantly run up attorney's fees, and add several additional days to the court process while that angle is argued out in court. But at the end, if you and your attorney are smart, the end result should theoretically be the same. People can posture all they want, they can make all the arguments they want, but there is no law that prevents you from using handloaded ammunition.

Only thing I've seen him say with conviction about it is that using factory ammo increases the chance of accurate forensics due to the possibility that you might still have the box the fired rounds came from with the lot number - or something lIke that. He cited a case where that made the difference. I guess I'm screwed, 'cause I don't keep track of that stuff.

I have investigated, either as the primary investigator, co-investigator, or as part of a team, a significant number of shootings, unknown death investigations, etc. As well as attended numerous training schools related to the subject of forensic investigation.

Never, not once was the issue of whether the person was shooting handloads, reloads, or factory ammunition end up being a factor in the case, in terms of prosecutorial outcomes. Not one single time. This was also discussed with other investigators from various state/federal agencies throughout the country when attending training.

Not one single time did anyone have any personal experience with an investigation where that was the case. Again, not one single time. And we are talking about combining literally thousands of shootings/investigations. Senior guys groan when some new guy brings up the dang question and it eats up time during the class too, as it gets covered over and over, year after year.


New Jersey v. Daniel Bias was brought up. It is such a statistical outlier that it is not worth bothering with.

Think about this.

These are rough numbers BTW.

NJ vs Bias happened in 1989.

There are (very roughly) 15,000 homicides a year.

That would be over 450,000 homicides since the NJ vs Bias.

Yet handloads have not really been a factor in those 450,000 cases, so guys are digging all the way back to the 80s.



Someone who makes his living selling fear based propaganda and classes is not a person I would rely on for unbiased information.

There are far more important things to worry about.

AyBoob is a fugking fraud.

It's no more complicated than that.

The only way I can see handloads being an issue is if your claim was you had an accidental discharge that killed someone.

Then condition of weapon and loads matter. AD vs Negligence.

In a self defense shooting - the question isn't "how dead" but "should they be dead"? Any lawyer worth having is talking about that.

As a more pragmatic matter, as far as handloads go - for defensive use, the ammo has to be 100% reliable. To me, that means new brass, free of any nicks, dents, or burrs from previous firings. You obviously can get it with brand new brass, handloaded, or buy new factory ammo.

You could also argue, it's hard to find good defensive ammo for some cartridges, hence "I had to load my own for this gun"

Because I bet my life on a gun that needs everything perfect and my handloads are inferior to what a factory schits by the millions.

Get real.

AD is negligence, infact all accidents are caused by negligence