Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Historians... Engagement distances in battle...

Was bs'ing with a guy the other day while I was trying to buy his WWII M1 Carbine (Winchester) and we started talking about engagement distances in the various wars.

WWI: Trench warfare might seem to be long distance engagements. Of course a charge and over taking another's trench would mean close range fighting. I know the Americans used some pump shotguns and buckshot to such deadly effect the Germans made formal complaints about it. I have no idea what the average rifle engagement range might be?

WWII: I would guess the European theatre would have longer ranges than fighting in the Pacific?

Korea: Longer ranges? Until the communist made a suicide charge and ended up in the lines of the American forces?

Vietnam: Mostly close ranges?

GWAT: Iraq close, Afghanistan far?

What is "close" range? Inside 100 yards? Medium might be 100 - 250? Anything outside that long range, 250+? I was thinking of our various military rifles in that time frame and their capabilities and the different conditions they were used in and started me thinking about I personally would have wanted in those situations. And, God bless the American serviceman forever for the sacrifice they made and continue to make today.

Terrain and environment dictate "engagement" range more than doctrine or tactics.

I love the way that the media throw around "point-blank range" like they know what it means.

The Germans developed the 8mm Kurz (7.92 x 33) in WWII after their studies showed that most combat engagements took place within 400 meters, so that would include 1 to 400 meter engagement distances.

In "Battlefield Analysis of Infantry Weapons", a study of the effectiveness of various infantry weapons in the Korean War, most combatants reported that they didn't engage the enemy with their M1 Garands much beyond 200 yards. The two main reasons given were terrain - the sloping, hilly nature prevented them from seeing the enemy until they were about 200 yards away, and probability of hits. They didn't figure they had much chance of hitting them beyond about 200 yards and so saved their ammo until they got closer.

In the first Iraqi war some soldiers were reportedly mounting 4x scopes on their M-16's using whatever civilian scope mounts were available due to the extended ranges of engagement. Don't quote me too hard on that since it's from some half remembered article I read 30 years ago.

MOGC, did you buy the Winchester carbine? What was he asking? I have one I will probably be selling. Same with a Standard Products carbine.

He is still trying to make up his mind if he wants to sell. This guy is a character, he collects, not for use, just for collecting and is always wheeling and dealing. He has over 50 Randall Made knives, several variations of about every U.S. Military rifle and handgun that has been issued since the Spanish American War 1898.

That's interesting information. 400 yards and in for the WWII European Theatre and 200 yards for Korea. The Korean War range surprises me. I would have thought it further.

I may be wrong but I believe the Carbine was not intended as a combat weapon but rather a replacement for the pistol carried by support troops. It ended up being very popular with *some* front-line troops while others detested it.

I had one and it was fun as hell to shoot, and I could see where carrying one would be less strenuous than a Garand.

They did a lot of sniping in WW1. Actually all wars.

As a kid I carried an M1 carbine as my first deer rifle. I’m glad I never shot a deer with it. IIRC the ballistic chart said it had about half the juice of a .30-30. Close range for sure.




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At the siege of Vicksburg, the men in the trenches were so close together that they could talk back and forth in normal voices. The problem was more a case of hitting your enemy with the barrel when you didn't have enough room between you to aim.

Think about being a soldier in WWI jumping in a trench with that Springfield bolt action and long bayonet!

E tool or club worked great in the trenches. Matter of fact you could order an old time style mace from Sears& Roebuck and have it forward to your loved one in France. Marketed as a trench club!

Edit. Lots of theatre made weapons too like pick handles wrapped with concertina wire!

I'd rather have a Winchester 97 stuffed full of 00 Buck and a 1911 and a bunch of loaded magazines! That would probably have been a pretty good combination at night in a foxhole in the WWII Pacific.

Rather had a Model 12. 😉

Never been a fan of the 1897 Winchester

In WW1 from what I’ve read “A Rifleman Goes To War” crossing no man’s land was the biggest chalky. Machine gun nests set up a crossfire. Those guys were in a pretty terrible mess. Even the trenches were filled with rats and mice, mud and sewage.