Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Sir Ron,

I figured as much since you had mentioned that you had no experience with the Blaser rifle, but thought I should ask anyway. The Blaser can be very polarizing.

Yep, take note.
Sir Jerry is the "Talent" or exhibition shooter for the .458 WM+.
He is the pro bono hired gun.
He works gratis for the common good.

Can anyone tell me what the brain diameter (target facing you) of a Buffalo is? How about a Hippo and Lion? Thank you!

Just think of all of them being the size of a baseball, about 3" diameter, at the center of the brain location,
and be able to hit it offhand at 50 yards.
Avoid horns on buffalo.
A buffalo brain is about 6" wide and long and only about 3" tall.
Kind of a flat pattycake shape, squeezed in under those horn bosses.
Hippo and lion brains are more oblong but the baseball size will work on them too.
Heck, even works on an elephant, just imagine a baseball at the center of a huge loaf of wide-pan bread,
but go for center, aim small miss small.
Now get out your copy of THE PERFECT SHOT and study brain location,
Sir Roo.

"Yellowstone" Prequel called "1883" ...
Just finished watching the TV series "1883" and was shocked to see that a starring rifle in that show
was a Winchester 1885 High Wall being fired by the hero and heroine during the year 1883.
John Moses Browning designed the prototype in 1878, in Utah,
and Winchester bought the design from him in 1883,
made some improvements, and released it in 1885.
That is how I understand it.
I bet our hero from Tennessee got an original John Moses Browning 1878 rifle out of Utah.
Somehow he had one when he set out for Oregon in 1883.
That would make for a good fictional adventure in itself, for gunnuts.
Eh ?
Otherwise, I am calling "blooper."

Another tiny blooper in the show is that Starline brass was shown in closeup of headstamp
on .44 WCF ammo that our hero bought in a Commanche camp.
The ammo box itself might have been correct, but I gotta check "The Book" on that.

The puny ballistics of the .44 WCF from rifles and revolvers on that show must be why so many
of the fictional characters survived their gunshot wounds.
Gotta say no human, deer or elk survived a hit from the High Wall in that fiction.
That rifle looked to be .45-cal. from the muzzle hole glimpses.
Shades of the .458 WinMag Superiority.

Related:

Sir Ron,
Your Absolutely correct on the 1885 Stuff. I also noticed that a while back when we watched it.

I didn't notice the Starline brass though, good observation.

Thank you Sir Ron. No anatomy studying needed just yet, as no brains are being injured at this time. Just curious for some drills I'm running with the big rifle. I had previously been told 6" for a Buff brain, maybe I assumed it was more circular, rather than 6X3.

Sir Tony,
You ought to enjoy this:
They started off at Fort Worth:



But not sure what route they took to get onto the Oregon trail, film showed them crossing the Brazos River early on ???



The Model of 1885 being used in April of 1883:



It might have been a .45-70 Gov't. Killing Machine:



The ammo for the more survivable firearms used in the gunfights:

Sir Roo,
Look at the thickness of bone and horn protecting the cape buffalo brain:

The 400-gr #13 FN from CEB has been test-fired in the .458 WM and .458 B&M.
Note the COL used for the .458 WM was only 3.185".
The COL used for the .458 B&M was not revealed.
If 3.185" is possible with 1 band out of case, as Doc M specified with the .458 WM,
then with 2 bands out of the case a COL of 3.285" should be the ideal loading length for the .458 WM.



Comparing the .458 WM to the .458 B&M, both with 20" barrel, using 400-gr CEB #13 FN:

I proposed to load the .458 WM to COL 3.340" or even 3.350" with the 400-gr CEB #13 FN:

Got the 400-gr #13 early today and just finished Old Lady Duties.
Then ran to local emporium to buy ammo boxes to house the precious gems.
The ones for .45 LC work nicely.

A .458 B&M 2.240″ case made by Quality Cartridge or from RUM brass has same capacity as Hornady or W-W or R-P .458 WM brass at 2.500″.
They are all about 95.0 grains gross H2O when once-fired and not-resized, at those lengths respectively.
It’s almost like somebody planned it that way !
Use the Norma brass at 2.500″ and the .458 WM is a few grains bigger than the .458 B&M 2.240″ (Qual Cart or RUM).
Maybe Norma-based .458 B&M brings that back to parity ?
Case capacity should be considered to be identical if BLM (Brass Loaded Matters) parity is practiced.
Any internal ballistic differences between the two carts will be due to more efficient case shape of .458 B&M
versus longer throat of the .458 WM.
I think we could home-cook loads to favor either one of them, HEH HEH.

My .458 B&M with a .458 WM throat can handle 3.340″ COL
and is exactly identical to a .458 WM with 3.600″ COL for net case capacity,
with a long enough bullet to do that.
That is 1.100″ nose projection for both, not coincidentally !
Both will beat a SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600″ COL.

I will get dummied up shortly to see if equivalent case capacity loads can be made
for the .458 B&M and .458 WM using the 400-gr #13 and the existing bands.
Knowing the COLs used for the .458 B&M pressure data would help in comparing it to the .458 WM.
Just eye-balling, it looks like 0.650″ and 0.750″ projection are possible with one band and two bands ahead of the case mouth.
.458 B&M COLs: 2.890″ and 2.990″
.458 WM COLs: 3.150″ and 3.250″

That is perfect for net case capacity match, if both are loaded with same seating depth, not coincidentally.
COL has to be 0.260″ longer with the .458 WM for it to equal the .458 B&M case capacity.
If brass is trimmed to 2.230″ and 2.490″ respectively, max COLs become 2.980″ and 3.240″ respectively.

If the third band is seated hard up against the case mouth, 0.850″ of nose projection might be possible.
I am still eye-balling this.
Then the respective COLs with the “trimmed-to” brass become: 3.080″ and 3.340″
I am going to try it,
to give the .458 WM its full SAAMI due.
Don’t laugh. I had a 360-gr./.500-cal., tipped Raptor put 3 shots into 0.3 MOA at 300 yards, once upon a time,
with only one band inside the case mouth and a boat tail hanging below that !
In the .458 WM I am going to have the base band down in case with a taper crimp above it,
running into the bottom of the third band for a hard stop.
The bullet pull may be weak but the bullet stop will be strong.
I doubt I will have to paper-patch between the base band and third band for a tighter grip.
This ain’t no double rifle ammo, so the bullets won’t get pulled when riding in a magazine.
Alignment and concentricity should not be an issue either,
with a Lee Factory Crimp.

The spectacular 400-gr #13 has a length of only 1.224″ on a sample of one I just picked out of the bulk bag.
Seating depth is only 0.374″ if bullet projection is 0.850″ ahead of case mouth.
The minor diameter of the bullet currently being coon-fingered (0.449″) is right on 0.001″ less than bore diameter (0.450″).
The band diameter is right on groove diameter minimum of 0.458″.
Keeping the optimized 3 + 1 band structure, there is hardly any other way to build this bullet.
It is totally optimized.
I will never look this gift horse in the mouth.

Sir Ron,
Enjoying every dog gone minute of it!!!!
Wishin we could "Buy a Donkey" for it!!! LOL!!!
I now notice the Starline Brass on the "Replica Winchester Model 1873" Box!
Thanks for the great work, "RIP"

LOL, Thank you Sirs, i hit the 350 yard Ram and 400 yard gong this morning at first light, well past operating range of the bullet i'm sure, but shows what can be done if a man knows his drops.

Sir Ron, those 400 grain solids will be gold and perfect littermates to the 404 Hammers ; ]

Good stuff Sir.

Sir Jerry,
They will be good for pairing with the 400-gr softs, aye !
Your 500-gr Sledgehammers in the .458 WM+ might penetrate farther,
but even the 400-grainer will be elephant-capable.
That Doc M at MIB is working hard at it, already has some "terminals" with the new bullet,
and lots of results with other bullets to compare:





Here is the gold standard for comparison:



And a couple of inches deeper here:



Incredibly the 325-gr #13 FN is just an inch or two short of the 400-grainer
at same impact velocity and, more understandably, no improvement as velocity is increased
past a certain point with the 325-grainer:







Exponential increase of resistance as velocity goes up ?
A velocity wall dependent on the greater-than-first-order test medium ?

That one inch less with the 325-grainer than with the 400-grainer's penetration is adequate for elephant:



It takes an elephant skull frontal shot plus an elephant body to catch one of those little 325-grain boogers !

6 feet of hippo was enough to stop the 450-gr CEB Safari Solid on one occasion:



So the 400-gr CEB Safari Solid ought to be able to do the work if both the 325-gr and 450-gr CEB brass FNs of same caliber can do it.

Very impressive, this proves that a properly designed mono metal solid doesn't need to be 500 grains and the folly of falling for the SD nonsense

Good Shootin, Sir Jerry! Show us what them Solids can Do!!!

Yep, even the 325-gr/.458 brass FN of CEB with a BBW#13 nose shape projecting 0.6" ahead of first band is better than the old 500-gr/.458 RN FMJ "solid,"
even at same impact velocity, even at 2000 fps or less.
Lessons from MIB.

Here is the WFN copper Lehigh 380-grainer.
The sharp-edged, ~.35-caliber meplat may not penetrate as deeply as the BBW#13 nose profile,
but it will track straight
and dump energy faster, put more hurt on a big brown bear not needing as much penetration as an elephant.
It still does plenty of penetrating.
Feeds in my bolt actions if I keep them seated deeply enough.
That was the only surprise about this bullet for me:

Nostalgia:

More nostalgia:

Buffalo brain shot lesson at top of next page, Sir Roo will like that,
done with Blaser R-8 in the lesser-caliber .375 H&H.
Even works on tuskless cow PAC elephant:



300-gr CEB Safari Solid head shot exited, angled side brain to offside neck near ear.
One shot and done, at less than 10 yards range !
300-gr TSX shot well with the CEB solid load also.