24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,924
D
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,924
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I have hunted with a bunch of PHs, and know several more very well. Have also sat around during evenings drinking beer with up to half-a-dozen very experienced guys, and heard them argue.

But the majority have stated that they much prefer to see a scoped bolt-action come out of the gun case when a new-to-them buffalo hunter shows up, This is because too many have seen bullets misplaced on buffalo due to two factors:

1) Iron sights, which often don't provide an adequate aiming point on buffalo in thick, shadowy cover.

2) A double chambered for a cartridge the hunter can't handle, due to recoil and/or heavy trigger pulls.

And buffalo hunters probably out-number elephant hunters 100-1 in present-day Africa.

I quite agree.

I'm currently re-reading John Sharp's book, "Facing Down Fear" and last night I was struck by his assertion that the most important attribute of a DG rifle is that it must fit you perfectly. By fit, he means that when you bring the rifle up to your eye the sights align where you're looking without you having to work at aligning them. Much like a well-fitted shotgun, the DG rifle has to be one you shoot instinctively: you look at your target, you shoulder your weapon, and the sights/barrel(s) line up perfectly with the target. All you have to do then is pull the trigger and the bullet will go where you're looking.

With dangerous game, you have all the time you need to make your first shot, and you should take all of it. If your first shot doesn't kill the animal, the the time available to break what will be the last shot into the charging critter (or the last shot of YOUR life) is going to be measured in tenths of a second. There isn't time to adjust the sight picture. The shot must be instinctive, and that can only happen if your rifle fits you perfectly. So making sure your rifle is a good fit is far more important than what type of action it has.

When I booked my first buffalo hunt back in 2014, I was caught up in the history and romance of old Africa, so naturally I bought a double rifle right away. I got a good deal on a decent 9.3x74R Sabatti and started shooting it right away. The barrels were well-regulated for 100 yards from the bench, but I discovered immediately that the stock did not fit me. Which meant 1) it kicked like a Grand Canyon burro and 2) it was hard to make it shoot accurately from field positions. This would not do for a DG rifle, so I sold it and then went through a series of magazine (bolt) rifles in .458 Win, .375 Ruger, and finally . 375 H&H. The latter was a Kimber Caprivi that fits me perfectly, and that's what I used on both my safaris as well as multiple hunts here in North America.

A PH needs a "stopping rifle", and many PH's prefer a double if they can afford it. There is no question that firing the second barrel on a double is much, much faster than the second shot on a magazine rifle. My PH on both my safaris was John Sharp, and he has used his somewhat famous 470 Rigby double to stop many DG charges, often requiring the second barrel. (He didn't have to stop any charges on my animals, thankfully!) My photo/video guy on my last safari, Rayno Egnar, is also a PH who really, really wants a double rifle for the same reason most PH's do... for that fast followup shot.

Most hunters do not need a double rifle. For one thing, they need to be able to make their first shot on their DG animal count, and a scoped bolt rifle is far better suited to that task than an iron-sighted double. For another thing, most PH's these days will flat-out refuse to let the client/hunter come along when walking up a wounded buffalo, leopard, or lion; partly for liability reasons, but moreso because they don't want a nervous client shooting them.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
BP-B2

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,550
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,550
I coveted that Sabatti, Doc. From the first time I saw it in Texas.


"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them."
-Master Chief Hershel Davis

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,015
G
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,015
First and foremost i am there to kill, that said, i'd rather track buffalo with my doubles, but wont lie and say i dont have a heavy medium bore with scope handy if a buff of a lifetime is spotted and cant be closed in on at double rifle ranges, i'd put a vital hit on the animall with the bolt gun, then grab a double, hurry over and get it settled asap, carried a 577 and 400 H&H stoked with 400gr a-frames at 2400 fps in Tanzania fall 2020, didnt need the 400 for buff or hippo as both were shot less than 18 yards on the ground.

Did use the scoped bolt 400 H&H on:

Zebra 277 yards
Waterbuck 238 yards
Hartebeest 232 yards
Warthog 166 yards
Leopard 70 yards


Trump Won!
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,368
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,368
Originally Posted by gunner500
First and foremost i am there to kill, that said, i'd rather track buffalo with my doubles, but wont lie and say i dont have a heavy medium bore with scope handy if a buff of a lifetime is spotted and cant be closed in on at double rifle ranges, i'd put a vital hit on the animall with the bolt gun, then grab a double, hurry over and get it settled asap, carried a 577 and 400 H&H stoked with 400gr a-frames at 2400 fps in Tanzania fall 2020, didnt need the 400 for buff or hippo as both were shot less than 18 yards on the ground.

Did use the scoped bolt 400 H&H on:

Zebra 277 yards
Waterbuck 238 yards
Hartebeest 232 yards
Warthog 166 yards
Leopard 70 yards

Excellent advice and post, Gunner. This almost exactly what Boddington says as well. Basically, if you hunt buffalo with a double, you ostensibly cut your odds by 50% (sic). What 400 H&H do you have?


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,843
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,843
I am too poor to afford a decent double so low power scoped bolt gun it is for me. I am planning a buff hunt but it is somewhat low on my list so it may be a while.

I did confirm zero on my M70 .375 H&H yesterday on a ground squirrel. That means I am ready.



IC-A B3

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,125
B
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
B
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,125
Doubles speak of tradition, but are seldom the best choice for a hunter in Africa. Many reasons...cost, familiarity, iron sights, black buff against black shaded background, weight, etc.

PS: Now Gunner shooting my old 577 Verney Carron....now that's a different story :-)

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,015
G
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,015
Thanks Jorge, that 400 H&H platform came from our old buddy Biebs that posted right under you, he sold me a model 70 classic sporter barreled action in 300 Weatherby, that action made a hell of a lightweight American version of a British stalking rifle, it's a great shooter with Kreiger barrel and everything else bedded, pillared and cross bolted in a beautiful stick of Claro, you two guys have sure sold me some fine rifles, your old pre-64 300 H&H is going with me next Safari.

LOL, Biebs, that 577 Nitro with 26" barrels you sold me is an equal opportunity destroyer with it's 750gr Barnes solids and TSX's at 2076 fps, unreal quick killer of heavy dangerous game, they simply cant take that kind of blow to the vitals, i did bend the head on one of those 750gr Barnes banded solids on the hippo skull, the bullet went in at the triangle, took out over two feet of spine and was found in the pelvic region of the hippo, gotta be near 12 feet of penetration in a 13.5 foot long animal, the PH, Game Scouts and skinning crew were all dumbfounded at that level of destruction and penetration.

I've heard, saw videos and read of dangerous game taking multiple hits from all sorts of rifles and cartridges, i just haven't seen it at the end of my barrels yet ; ]

Thanks for selling me a "Sledge Hammer" of an accurate rifle Sir.


Trump Won!
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,368
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,368
Good to go, Jerry!


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,081
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,081
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by gunner500
First and foremost i am there to kill, that said, i'd rather track buffalo with my doubles, but wont lie and say i dont have a heavy medium bore with scope handy if a buff of a lifetime is spotted and cant be closed in on at double rifle ranges, i'd put a vital hit on the animall with the bolt gun, then grab a double, hurry over and get it settled asap, carried a 577 and 400 H&H stoked with 400gr a-frames at 2400 fps in Tanzania fall 2020, didnt need the 400 for buff or hippo as both were shot less than 18 yards on the ground.

Did use the scoped bolt 400 H&H on:

Zebra 277 yards
Waterbuck 238 yards
Hartebeest 232 yards
Warthog 166 yards
Leopard 70 yards

Excellent advice and post, Gunner. This almost exactly what Boddington says as well. Basically, if you hunt buffalo with a double, you ostensibly cut your odds by 50% (sic). What 400 H&H do you have?

I agree with pretty much all of that.

Had a buffalo in Zambia on trip that ran into the thick stuff


"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,924
D
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,924
Originally Posted by gunner500
First and foremost i am there to kill, that said, i'd rather track buffalo with my doubles, but wont lie and say i dont have a heavy medium bore with scope handy if a buff of a lifetime is spotted and cant be closed in on at double rifle ranges, i'd put a vital hit on the animall with the bolt gun, then grab a double, hurry over and get it settled asap, carried a 577 and 400 H&H stoked with 400gr a-frames at 2400 fps in Tanzania fall 2020, didnt need the 400 for buff or hippo as both were shot less than 18 yards on the ground.

Did use the scoped bolt 400 H&H on:

Zebra 277 yards
Waterbuck 238 yards
Hartebeest 232 yards
Warthog 166 yards
Leopard 70 yards

I have no doubt of your abilities with a big double, gunner! If I had my druthers, I'd follow your lead... but I'd need a gun-bearer for my second rifle!

Originally Posted by jorgeI
Excellent advice and post, Gunner. This almost exactly what Boddington says as well. Basically, if you hunt buffalo with a double, you ostensibly cut your odds by 50% (sic). What 400 H&H do you have?

Sound advice, I'm afraid.

My first buff, in 2015, was taken at 50 paces, and there was no chance of stalking closer... he was walking in a wide-open field with ankle-deep grass, and the only cover between me and him was a 10-foot mopane sapling about 2" in diameter. The light was fading, about 30 minutes before sundown. As you know, in Africa the light begins to fade much earlier in the afternoon due to the dry-season-long dusty haze, so by 30 minutes prior to sunset it's getting dim. And he was in the shade of the trees we were set up in, as well. My scope, a 1.5-4X Trijicon, has an illuminated triangle at the top of the post, and I can tell you without question that I needed that illuminated aiming point... the black of the post was indiscernible against the black sides of the buff. Because I was able to see exactly where my aiming point was in that lowering light, I was able to put the 300 gr A-frame right through the top of his heart. It literally blew his heart in half, which is why he only ran about 75 yards before he fell and never got up again. Even with a gold bead front sight, I believe it would have been dicey seeing it against the bull's flanks. African light can be very tricky. I'm very glad I had a scoped rifle for that buff.

My second buff, in 2019, was a very different sort of deal. We hunted very hard every day for 8 days without getting a chance at a shootable bull. I already had a respectable 36-incher, and I very much wanted at least 41" this time around. We stalked close enough to several smaller bulls to take a shot, but smaller wasn't in the cards. We finally got onto a group of 4 dugga boys on Day 9, and tracked them for about 2 hours without having a chance at them. One bull was closer to 40", but none of them were huge... still, it was the second-last day of the hunt, and beggars can't be choosers. It got much worse at the end of the stalk... the bulls had crossed a dry river-bed, and the far bank was the boundary of our hunting concession. They had stopped to feed in the lush greenery of the riverbank, but we were 120-130 yards from them, and if they went up and over the top of the bank, we couldn't pursue them further. My PH was feeling positive about the setup, as I had busted a hyena through his shoulders at 200 yards earlier in the morning, and he told me he felt confident I could make the shot if I wanted to. I realized full well that if I didn't kill this bull, I was likely going home to eat tag soup, so even though he wasn't a 41+ incher, I decided to take him. There is no way on earth I would dare that shot with an iron-sighted rifle at that range... but with my scope cranked up to 4X, I had full confidence in taking the shot. So I did, and I killed him with that shot. (I did put 2 more into him as he slowly walked up the bank away from us, but they were insurance shots only... when we opened him up, the first shot had torn his heart in half, the second shot further up and a bit further back took out both lungs, and the final shot broke his pelvis.) Again, this was a shot that would not have been doable with a double gun. No PH would allow it, the risk of creating a disastrous followup on a wounded bull would be too great.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
IC-B B4

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,177
CRS Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,177
My only bull was in 2018 in Zambia. Hunted hard for 9 days before an opportunity arose.

Had snuck into about 60 yards of 4 bedded bulls. As we were trying to sort everything out, the bulls got up and started walking towards us. They passed by at about 30 yards and a shot finally presented at 40 yards. I am sure I could have made the shot with open sights, but was carrying a 404 Jeffery bolt action with a Leupold 1-6. Do not remember what power the scope was set on. But the the 400g Barnes went right through the heart.

Asked the PH if I should shoot again and he said sure. Shot missed the base of the spine, but ended up somewhere in the guts. Didn't matter as the bull went less than 100 yards and tipped over. That second shot may have been quicker with a double, but had no problems with the bolt.

I am sure I could figure out a double given enough time. But have been using bolt actions for as long as I can remember. First cottontail was with an open sighted bolt action 22 way back in the 70's.

So my choice is to use a bolt action. That is what I am familiar with, and what I will stick with. If money was no issue, I would still use bolt. Just go hunting one heck of a lot more. grin


Arcus Venator
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
S
Campfire Member
OP Offline
Campfire Member
S
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
A bolt rifle in 375 is very accurate and reliable.For one thing one is not scared to shoot it and the other is the inherent accuracy of the 375 compared to the larger bores.The 416 should work as well.

Last edited by swiftshot; 09/16/22.
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 229
O
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
O
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 229
Originally Posted by elkhunternm
.460 Wby
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


.450 Howell
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

.404 Jeffery
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I also have 3-.375 H&H's and a .375 RUM to chose for DG.


"not too grumpy"
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 229
O
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
O
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 229
Kinda reminds me of a hunt some years. I had built a .458 & wanted to take a deer with the rifle. While answered a "call of nature" with the rifle leaning on a bush, the rifle fell. I was a bit worried about the 1-3 scope being "off" after that. Shortly a squirrel came along & faced me on the ground at about 50 yards. I decided that would be a good test for my zero & fired at the critter. Bingo, a "reverse field dressing. Nothing left but the hide. Soon after that I received a very serious "whiplash injury". A NEUROSURGEON told me if I ever wanted to regain a somewhat normal life to forget about shooting such a rifle again.


"not too grumpy"
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
S
Campfire Member
OP Offline
Campfire Member
S
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
When I was shooting many fully charged rounds with my Lott and didn't know better I was feeling the effects of whip lash.I was having head aches that would last a week and at one point had difficulty finding the right timing to cross a busy street.

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,668
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,668
Sounds like you were shooting from the bench. You need to use shooting sticks when target shooting. That will allow your body to recoil with the shot and not absorb the full impact. The 458 Lott is a hard hitter on both ends but like all rifles, when you are shooting at game you don't notice it. - T.S.

Last edited by TexasShooter; 09/19/22.

NRA Endowment Member
Firearms Accumulator
Proud Trumpster!!
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
S
Campfire Member
OP Offline
Campfire Member
S
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
I shoot all my rounds offhand.Shooting sticks are for people who are out of shape or out of breath.Nothing matches the art of offhand shooting.

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,668
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,668
OK Hotshot................. so, you sight/zero your rifle sights shooting offhand?


NRA Endowment Member
Firearms Accumulator
Proud Trumpster!!
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
S
Campfire Member
OP Offline
Campfire Member
S
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 220
Offhand and standing on my head-lol

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 344
J
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
J
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by swiftshot
I shoot all my rounds offhand.Shooting sticks are for people who are out of shape or out of breath.Nothing matches the art of offhand shooting.

What an idiot……

Page 4 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
CTV-TRX
Who's Online Now
663 members (16penny, 1badf350, 2003and2013, 1beaver_shooter, 06hunter59, 60 invisible), 1,844 guests, and 1,307 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3-22

UDG-IP


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2022 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.054s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 0.9789 MB (Peak: 1.1556 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2022-12-05 14:19:36 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS