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Originally Posted by UpThePole
Here's some real fun with a 458. 2 round balls. perfect for home invasion. Shoots into 3" at 25 yards.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/SPou8FR.jpg?1[/img]

Yep.
I use 3 balls and 18.5 grains of BLUEDOT from a 1.6cc Lee dipper.
All three balls will group inside the head of a zombie at 25 yards.

Next trick will be to use the Speer .45 Long Colt shot capsules
to increase birdshot capacity of the .458 WinMag to greater than that of the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Heretofor the only area of superiority of the .458 Lott
has been with rat-killin' shot loads.
That too is now in jeopardy.


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
I could use some pointers on the .40-90 SBN.
Got one made by re-chambering a Pedersoli .40-65 WCF,
their 1874 Silhouette version, plain Jane heavy octagon.
Have not loaded ammo for it yet.
Paper patch or greaser, whatever Sir Jerry can get to work,
I'll try it.


Sir Ron, those Pedersoli's have great triggers and lock works, my rifle is a 16 twist, i have 400gr paper patch and a 350gr grease groove bullet, have learned all powder, grease cookie and wads need to be kept in the neck, finicky little hard fouling beach to say the least.


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Sir Jerry,
Good, my barrel is 1:16" twist also, 30" long, straight octagon all the way, about 12 pounds weight rifle.
0.400" bore, 0.408" groove, 6-groove, double set trigger, tang Soule sight.
I will be most interested in paper-patching 20:1 alloy, 400-ish grainer slicks,
by the same methods as you and Saint Sir Bill Bagwell employ(ed) for the .40-cals.
Mine is on the backburner due to RADD (Rifle Attention Deficit Disorder).


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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GUNS Magazine, Dec. 2022 is out.
pp. 50-53:
"Jack O'Connor's .450 WATTS"
by Wayne van Zwoll

Some tired old propaganda and false narratives were regurgitated as usual, like Democrap gaslighting,
as reliably as the gaffs and pratfalls of Joe Biden ushered in for a puppet show performance.
The most glaring of this misinformation was to say that the .458 Winchester Magnum
"hurls 500-grain bullets about 200 fps slower" than the .458 Lott !
The "ammunition expert," Wayne van Zwoll, was typing up the wrong tree on that one.
He once published a book showing a Hornady factory load for the .458 WinMag with 500-grainer at 2260 fps.

Sir Jerry has verified .458 WM+ ammo at about 3.560" COL (IIRC) with 500-gr TBSS at +2300 fps.
If the SAAMI .458 Lott does that it will be at higher pressure than in the .458 WM+.
I have LabRadar-ed that same bullet at 2408 fps MV from a 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag
with W-W Super brass and 3.550" COL.
That was a 5-shot mean with st.dev. of 6.9 fps at 80*F.

2300 fps with the 500-gr FN solid is good in the .458 WM+.
So is 2500 fps with the 404-gr Shock Hammer,
and probably nothing more than 2400 fps with the 400-gr FN solid by CEB at 3.350" COL is needed.
Somewhere between impact at 2200 fps and 2500 fps penetration might be maxed out for an FN solid.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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The natives are getting restless at the Hammer Bullets web site,
so I printed this there, when some of them griped about no blood and guts yet,
and also claimed the .45-90 was of greater case capacity than the .458 WM.
To the Hammer Heads:


I'll be hunting deer soon with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
The zone I am in has no limit this year, 4 was the limit last year, they need thinning out.
I should be able to get some necropsies on deer.
Sir Jerry's report on cape buffalo and African plains game with the 404-gr SH is in the pipe, be patient.
Twice to Africa for me has been enough, I want more Alaska.
I will never get enough of Alaska, and the 404-gr SH is perfect for anything there.
Might even make a great sheep and goat bullet from the right rifle.
I'll get a lot of mileage out of that concept.

.45-90 is a 2.4" rimmed cartridge case.
If it is bigger than the 2.5" case of the .458 WM, that is a surprise to me.
Starline .45-2.6" brass, for the .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated
aka the ".45-70 Elko Magnum" exactly as shown in CIP,
is 2 grains water bigger than the .458 WM.

In W-W Super, Hornady, or RP brass cases, trimmed to 2.500" after firing and not re-sized,
gross water is 95 grains, just like the default in QuickLOAD says.
However, the Norma .458 WM brass case is bigger in gross case capacity than those, by about another 4.2 grains H20.
So, 95.0 to 99.2 grains H20 gross for the .458 WM depending on brass.

So a 3.380" COL with Norma brass gives same net case capacity as 3.480" COL with W-W Super or Hornady brass
in the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Those are good COLs with the 404-gr Shock Hammer using 2.500" brass when crimping on the 2nd and 3rd troughs of the 5 in the PDR bands.

Here are some loads chronographed from a 25" Shilen barrel with the 404-gr Shock Hammer in W-W Super (Winchester) brass,
at 3.480" COL
F-215 or GM215M primer
at 86*F
corrected to MV from 5-yard chronograph (BC = 0.419),
consider these maximum or too hot for your rifle until proven otherwise,
starting from 10% below:

H4198 72.0 grains: 2514 fps
H322 78.0 grains: 2510 fps

At 39*F, earlier date, other load specs and rifle same as above:

AA-2230 81.0 grains: 2517 fps

At 40*F, earlier date, other load specs and rifle same as above, except using greater capacity Norma brass:

AA-2230 84.0 grains: 2545 fps

From 25" to 20" barrel shortening, subtract about 20 fps per inch as estimate.
Below 20" barrel length, losses increase more rapidly per inch.
Above 25" length, gains decrease more rapidly per inch.

Remember that these results are made possible by the throat of the SAAMI .458 WM.
I put that same throat on my .45-2.6"-100 Sharps (Ruger No. 1) and thus recreated the .45-70 Elko Magnum.
That "70" in the Elko must be for 70 grains of non-compressed smokeless like H4198 instead of for 70 grains of compressed BP.
Heh heh.
Any loads for the .458 WM that might be over 60,000 psi or over 3.340" COL
I call .458 WM+ loads.
Load data for the .458 WM+ (with W-W Super brass)
and the .45-2.6-100 SWT (with StarLine brass) are interchangeable.
COL is just 0.100" longer in the latter.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Sir Jerry's results on the Cape Buffalo are certainly anxiously awaited. I anticipate outstanding bullet performance from the 404 Hammer.

I am going to shoot for 2350-2400 fps from my 22" 458 Winchester standard magazine length and the 404 Hammer. That should be a relatively light recoiling load, have a suitable trajectory arc for my purposes, and should rapidly let the air out of anything in Alaska within 225 or so yards.
I probably never would have tried the Hammer, had Barnes responded favorably to the pleadings for the 400 TSX production after dropping the 400 X-bullet. Water under the bridge. But, at this point the 404 Hammer fits my wants better anyways. I was hooked after opening the first box. The MIB penetration testing, and groups on target sealed the deal for me. Plus they do seem to copper foul the barrel very little. Though personally have never complaints about X or TSX. Certainly no more than A-Frames in my .375, 416, and 458 rifles. Which, I still like A-Frames and found them to group very well in my rifles.
As stated by many, many times; Lots of good to great bullets on the market now. Of course being in stock may be a different story.

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Yep, the 404-gr Shock Hammer is destined to be the ultimate Mountain Goat Bullet.
Remember Mr. Chadwick's Stone Sheep from early last century ?
It was said to be the greatest North American trophy of all time, still No. 1 Stone Sheep in B&C last I heard.
Mr. Chadwick used a 300-gr bullet from his 404 Jeffery to draw first blood on the sheep.
So what if his guide finished it off with a .30-06 while Mr. Chadwick was huffing and puffing to catch up at that altitude ?
Numerology of the 404 Shock Hammer says it is to be the ultimate sheep bullet from a .458 WinMag.

I used to jokingly call the 404 Jeffery the ultimate "African Sheep Rifle" because of Mr. Chadwick.
Since advent of the .458/404-gr Shock Hammer,
the .458 Winchester Magnum has become the ultimate "GOAT Rifle"
as in Greatest Of All Time Rifle.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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Inspired by Sir Bob's blog today:

Tim Sundles gets 2250 fps from his 400-gr TSX Buffalo Bore proprietary load
whether in his 18"-barreled (Marquart barrel) custom Mauser .458 WinMag
or in his 22"-barreled M70 Winchester factory rifle, with same ammo.
Bore and groove specs, surface finish of those barrel internals, throat specs, slop in chamber, etc.
all interact in MV versus chamber pressure, whatever the barrel length.

I get closer to 2330 -2350 fps with the same ammo in 24" to 25" .458 WinMag barrels, custom and factory.
That puts the speediness of my rifles midway between Tim's fast and slow rifles, when corrected for barrel length.
BTW, upon dissection of his factory load, it looks like he is using the midrange charge of AA-2230
as listed in the Western Powders handloading manual for the old Barnes Original 400-gr Barnes SSSP.

Of course my data is only a guide, for adults who are not drinking beer while handloading.

Here is what Bob Mitchell said on his blog today, a God Wink:

https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/

I'm thinking that any differences in handloaded ballistics between the 7 x 57 and 7-08 will depend on the length of individual barrels, free bore, tightness of bore, COLs, powder used, psi, and the personality, goal and experience of the handloader - and NOT inherent differences in the cartridges.

The .280 Remington is, of course, a larger case that can hold ~10 grains more of the same powder, or a slightly slower powder like RL-22, so it's expected - all else equal, including barrel lengths and psi - that it could/should give a minimum of 100 - 200 fps increase in MV over the others. And I would not restrict the 7 x 57 nor the .280 to SAAMI specs in psi. The 7-08 is already at max of 62,000 psi (SAAMI) but it too could be safely pushed to 65,000 psi if the .270 is safe at that pressure according to SAAMI.

Of course, all that depends on the individual rifle and the handloader's experience for reading any excessive psi. ALL manuals make reference to excessive pressure "signs"! SO! IF pressure signs can't be "read", why do ALL manuals make reference to it? They even make DISCLAIMERS re their loads! YOU and I are on our own, they've abandoned us in that regard! That's an overload in REDUNDANCY since many on the forums who may have results greater than the manuals use the disclaimer: "And there were NO SIGNS of excess pressure"!!

So one handloader might claim 2750 fps for a 140 from his "precious" 7 x 57, and another might claim 3000 fps for a 140 from his "precious" 7 x 57... and both might be using safe handloads - NO SIGNS of excessive pressure!


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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The .45-cal rifle heritage:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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A way for me to test 404gr Shock Hammers on deer,
for lower velocity expansion on impact,
2300 fps MV to 1800 fps MV ... decisions, decisions.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Here is the deer-shusher ammo dummy, top cartridge below:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

This will allow me to save on .458 WM brass for a little while.
I only have 20 pieces of the Qual-Cart brass with proper head stamp.
Happy to convert any .300 RUM brass to .458 B&M anytime.
My .458 B&M+ work will easily translate to SAAMI .458 WM and .458 WM+ load data.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Lo and behold !
The 400-gr CEB FN#13 might work in a .458 SOCOM:

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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My son took a nice Nilgai with a 300 grain bullet from his .458 Socom. One shot and down. His MV is equal to a 45-70.

I shot one the same day with my .405 WCF and both have been eaten , so it is now time for another.


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Yep, the little .458 SOCOM does at 35,000 psi what the .45-70 does at 28,000 psi.
Nilgai is on my bucket list. Seems perfect for a .458/404-gr Shock Hammer inside of 400 yards,
How much inside of 400 yards I cannot say.
That will depend on whether I shoot it while wearing my pajamas.
How a nilgai would ever get into my pajamas I cannot say either.
A nilgai is sort of like a huge goat,
for the GOAT Rifle.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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My friends and I have shot a few Nilgai - all within 100 yards.
A UT buddy has ranch near Raymondville and killed all he could because they ate the grass intended for his cattle. He actually ran one down with his pickup truck-- broke the truck.
My last one was shot at 10 yards with .405 DR. It all depends on where and how you hunt. Good campfire story.
We hunt them in heavy cover, not in open country.


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Nilgai at spitting distance or way out yonder, the 404-gr Shock Hammer will gitterdun.
It's all good, except for the part about the broken pickup truck from running'em over.

In reviewing this MIB data prior to trying my 19.75" barrel chopped to 16.75"
I found a great illustration of fundamental science.

AA-2520 charge of 77.0 grains was the load I tested years ago in the .458 B&M
with the 450-gr CEB BBW#13 FN and 420-gr CEB BBW#13 HP.
I picked that load because it looked nice in the MIB data.

450-gr FN
20" >>> 2249 fps <<< 60,488 psi
18" >>> 2206 fps

420-gr HP
20" >>> 2254 fps <<< 52,357 psi
18" >>> 2207 fps

Velocity loss per inch of barrel shortening from 20" to 18":

450-gr bullet: 21.5 fps per inch
420-gr bullet: 23.5 fps per inch

Confirmation that with barrel shortening, heavier bullets lose less velocity than lighter bullets, heh heh.
I also reckon that loads with faster-burning powders also lose less velocity per inch of barrel shortening, heh heh.
But we usually use faster powders with lighter bullets, so it is a wash, pretty much, heh heh.

Here are some loads I will be testing in the .458 B&M+
comparing my previous 19.75" barrel length to the 16.875" length,
using AA-2520 77.0 grains with the 450-gr FN and 420-gr HP from CEB.
Then will try the 404-gr Shock Hammer with AA-2230 and H4198 loads
that previously gave about 2500 fps in a 24" .458 WM+ for both powders.
This might show that the faster-burning H4198 loses less velocity with barrel shortening than AA-2230.

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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I promise to gitterdun before Halloween, in between muzzleloader and modern gun season.
I want to hunt deer with the .458 B&M+.
Same thing as the .458 WM+ if you load them accordingly.
Speaking of Halloween,
Jon McNaughton is an artistic genius:

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Here is an interesting comparison of velocities for 3 different rifles with 18", 20", and 24" barrel lengths
for the .458 B&M, which is short throated.
Michael McCouury pressure tests his loads and considers these loads not excessive, in his rifles.

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Loads for the .458 B&M are good in the .458 WM with 0.260" longer COL for equivalence.

Surprising thing for me in the table above:
Different bullet types with same weight differ wildly in same rifle with same powder charge for delta Velocity per inch of Barrel Length,
dV/dBL.
Not to mention that all three rifle barrel lengths (18″, 20″, 24″) are from different rifle barrels,
and all that entails.
Complex !
Whatever gets the largest area under the time-pressure curve in the least time is going to lose less velocity per inch in a given rifle ?
Just a SWAG.
Factors like bullet material and bearing surface area,
barrel bore and groove diameters and bore area and rifling twist and finish on the rifling surfaces, etc.,
chamber slop and throat variations, etc.,
assuming identical loads fired in all the rifles, still a lot of room for variation in the dV/dBL.

My Miroku M1885 .45-70 Gov’t. has 0.457″ groove diameter, 6-grooves, 1:18″ twist, for example.

I guess the MIB rifle was a re-barrel of the M1885, for .458 B&M with 24″-barrel length ?

Best to start with one barrel and compare it at various length cut from long to short, nothing else changing,
including throat.

Confession:
My .458 B&M+ started off with a request for 0.400″ length of PSFB, and it had a 19.75″ barrel.
The extra Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore of 0.400″ would be expected to lower velocity (and pressure) for the same load
as tested in the MIB 20″-barreled standard chamber (short throat), and it did,
more than the trivial 0.25″ shortening would cause.
My 19.75″ velocities (.458 B&M+ 0.400″ PSFB) with AA-2520 77.0 grains, at 60*F:

450-gr CEB BBW#13 FN: 2203 fps at 5 yards, for BC = 0.190 corrects to 2224 fps MV
420-gr CEB BBW#13 HP: 2223 fps at 5 yards, for BC = 0.180 corrects to 2246 fps MV

MIB instrumental velocities of 2249 fps and 2254 fps respectively, if 5-yards chrono,
would correct to MVs of 2271 fps and 2277 fps respectively, at assumed 70*F standard laboratory conditions.

I got more difference between heavier FN and lighter HP.
Throat effect ?
My twist of 1:10″ instead of 1:14″ is another trivial factor, less important than throat.

The 16.875″ barrel has been throated a bit longer still, with a .458 WinMag throat.
That is the confession.
New baseline for my rifle. Will make allowances for that.

Just have to shoot it to find out the difference with barrel shortening.
This prediction stuff will give one a headache.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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MIB terminal testing shows this to be a great bullet in anything,
from subsonic peashooter to supersonic top end load:

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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