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tbird86 Offline OP
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I've been reading through the thread on subsonic .45-70 loads & it got me thinking -- If I were to dedicate a rifle to full-time subsonic/suppressed use, why wouldn't I just start with the .45 LC case & save some rifle length/weight, powder, & worry about case fill %?

Am I missing something?

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Sounds logical to me.
However I do not use suppressors on any gun, so what do I know.


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Agreed, a 45-70 rifle is more cumbersome than an 1892 model or Marlin in 45 Colt, and there are plenty of hot 45 colt loads that will do what you need.


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Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.

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Originally Posted by TX35W
Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.
I hadn't considered twist rate - will have to do some comparisons there.

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Originally Posted by desertoakie
Agreed, a 45-70 rifle is more cumbersome than an 1892 model or Marlin in 45 Colt, and there are plenty of hot 45 colt loads that will do what you need.
Not having checked much, I'm assuming there are standards loads that should be easy to keep subsonic from a 16-18"barrel..?

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Originally Posted by tbird86
I've been reading through the thread on subsonic .45-70 loads & it got me thinking -- If I were to dedicate a rifle to full-time subsonic/suppressed use, why wouldn't I just start with the .45 LC case & save some rifle length/weight, powder, & worry about case fill %?

Am I missing something?

No, you aren't missing anything. I'd choose the 45 Colt every time for a dedicated subsonic levergun.

It's all the same logic/reasons a 300 Blackout is better than a 308 Win for subsonic use.

And if you really want to get into the lightest loads, you can use 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy brass in a 45 Colt. The 45 Cowboy is about the same length as a 45ACP case.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special

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Originally Posted by tbird86
Originally Posted by desertoakie
Agreed, a 45-70 rifle is more cumbersome than an 1892 model or Marlin in 45 Colt, and there are plenty of hot 45 colt loads that will do what you need.
Not having checked much, I'm assuming there are standards loads that should be easy to keep subsonic from a 16-18"barrel..?

This is more or less true at least what I've found making subsonic loads for a suppressed 44 mag carbine. Most weaker 44 special loads, but not all, stayed subsonic from a 16" barrel. The heavier the bullet the better, obviously.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
And if you really want to get into the lightest loads, you can use 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy brass in a 45 Colt. The 45 Cowboy is about the same length as a 45ACP case.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special
That is good to know.

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Originally Posted by tbird86
Originally Posted by TX35W
Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.
I hadn't considered twist rate - will have to do some comparisons there.
Henry .45 Colt is 1:16"
Henry .45-70 is 1:20"

I don't see any negative to this plan from this direction.

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Do you have a "planned" purpose for the rifle, or just want a quiet rifle?
That may alter ones opinion?


Some spelling errors can be corrected by a vowel movement.
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Originally Posted by LouisB
Do you have a "planned" purpose for the rifle, or just want a quiet rifle?
That may alter ones opinion?
At this point I'm thinking:
1. Suppressed/Subsonic predator control around the flock & farmyard.
2. Suppressed deer rifle (stalking, wooded stand-sitting, small-statured shooters).
3. Unsuppressed deer/woods defense, "nuclear" .45LC loads approaching entry-level .45-70

I have a suppressor that's rated for .45 Colt/ACP, .300BLK subsonic, & 10mm Auto - but not .45-70 in any flavor. Currently it's living on a 9mm carbine, which is only legal for #1 & it's not great even there.

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Quote
Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.


It’s actually very easy to make subsonic loads for the .45-70, especially with cast bullets. Eleven grains of Unique (no filler ) under a 300-grain RCBS bullet nets 1079 fps out of my 30” rollingblock. Accuracy is under 4 moa with iron sights at 100 yards. Seventeen grains of BlueDot gives the 400-grain RCBS bullet 1075 fps out of my 16” Contender carbine.

That said, it is easier with my M94 Trapper in .45LC. Eleven grains of AA-5 sends the 255 Lee RNFP out at 1084 fps. This bullet is a gem in Lee’s bullet line, very accurate with excellent terminal effect on game thanks to its large meplat and a surprising BC of 0.20. The very long bearing surface enhances accuracy, and it feeds well from my M94 too.

Supersonic the .45LC gave me 1570 fps out of the Trapper with a healthy dose of H110 and a Hornady 250 XTP. I think that the OP’s idea has a lot of merit.




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Personally, I think the 45-70 is the better choice. When it comes to subsonic loads, any caliber/cartridge you use is limited to velocity. The energy is increased by bullet weight. Firing a 405 grain bullet out of a 45 LC would be an interesting experiment. I shoot suppressed subsonics in 22 LR, 30-30, 308 and 45-70. In every instance, save the 22 LR, the bullets are heavy for caliber. 405 grain subsonics in my Marlin Guide Gun with a 16 inch barrel are "cat sneeze" quiet but hit hard. Up to 75 yds. the trajectory is suitable for good accuracy. Beyond that, the bullet starts to drop noticeably. The biggest challenge is finding a powder that provides a quiet suppressed report. I find Hogdgon Trail Boss and no filler to be the ticket. Other powders I have tried, while rendering subsonic velocities, were nonetheless loud when fired.

Since I don't load rimfires, I have found the Eley Subsonics to be the best. Velocities are right on the cusp of supersonic but remain subsonic through the suppressor and zero is virtually the same as the supersonic loads.

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Originally Posted by tbird86
I've been reading through the thread on subsonic .45-70 loads & it got me thinking -- If I were to dedicate a rifle to full-time subsonic/suppressed use, why wouldn't I just start with the .45 LC case & save some rifle length/weight, powder, & worry about case fill %?

Am I missing something?
I deer hunted this year with my Henry 45 Colt Xmodel with a suppressor. The Henry has a 1-16 twist so you can shoot 300 grain bullets. I took a doe at 20 yards with a 300 grain XTP going 1070 fps. There was full penetration and a good blood trail. It only went about 40 yards.

In my experience with penetration testing I would recommend a flatnose hard cast if shooting 250 grain as you want sufficient penetration. In 300 grain you can use an XTP or a hard cast flatnose.

The Speer 250 deep curl expands quickly and will not penetrate as deeply but it will hammer small game. It's also very accurate and will shoot one hole groups at 50 yards. The 230 XTP is another great small game round.

The advantage of the 45 Colt is having bullets that were designed to expand at subsonic velocities. The 300 grain XTP is about perfect for moderate expansion and deep penetration.

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A 300 grain hard cast bullet in a 45 Colt handgun at 1070 has an established reputation of being a big game load. I'd stick with hard cast flatnose for big game where penetration is most important. The XTP will give moderate expansion on medium game and make it a better choice for larger wound channels. I think the 45 Colt is about the best choice for subsonic suppressed hunting. I wish you could get it in a bolt action rifle though the Henry is a fine lever gun.

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Never understood the suppressor thing.

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I want a full length case in my chamber…..reduces carbon build-up in the chamber. Yes, if cleaned very regularly a non-issue…….I just don’t want to spend a lot of time cleaning that could have been avoided.

In all of my handguns, I use magnum cases with reduced charges to accomplish light loads with minimal carbon buildup!

This is just my preference! memtb


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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
I deer hunted this year with my Henry 45 Colt Xmodel with a suppressor. The Henry has a 1-16 twist so you can shoot 300 grain bullets. I took a doe at 20 yards with a 300 grain XTP going 1070 fps. There was full penetration and a good blood trail. It only went about 40 yards.

In my experience with penetration testing I would recommend a flatnose hard cast if shooting 250 grain as you want sufficient penetration. In 300 grain you can use an XTP or a hard cast flatnose.

The Speer 250 deep curl expands quickly and will not penetrate as deeply but it will hammer small game. It's also very accurate and will shoot one hole groups at 50 yards. The 230 XTP is another great small game round.

The advantage of the 45 Colt is having bullets that were designed to expand at subsonic velocities. The 300 grain XTP is about perfect for moderate expansion and deep penetration.

I did end up selling my .45-70 for the same Henry X in .45 Colt. I'm very happy with the decision to switch, as it feeds well, uses less powder, is quiet, and is lighter.

We carried it with 250gr this year (didn't get any close shot opportunities though) because I didn't have time to test a bunch of different loads in time for deer season. I'd read some chatter about the 300gr+ loads maybe being too long to feed in the Henry Big Boy action -- am glad to hear they worked for you so I'll try to get something worked up in the next year.

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Originally Posted by WStrayer
Never understood the suppressor thing.
HUH? I can't hear you over the ringing in my ears!

Quieter is always better. This Henry X is hearing safe with the can on, and I don't have to worry about waking up the neighbors during their Sunday afternoon naps.

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