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Originally Posted by EdM
Only if one uses these.

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Interesting read.

https://supervelammunition.com/our-story/


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Originally Posted by kenjs1
Jeez Louise how many of these.......

Can someone make one thread listing all the handgun calibers with a checkbox yes or no next to each so we can be done with these silly questions?


The next stupidest question is about shooting deer with a .223…


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Originally Posted by TreeMutt
Jim Cirrillo was a NYPD stakeout squad cop back in the 60s. Was involved in more than 250 shootouts and survived, killed more people than any other cop.

His main weapon was a Smith Model 10, 38 Special. Not sure what loads but back then issue ammo was pretty anemic. I think he rolled his own but not sure.

250 shootouts? Come on man, Joe Biden tell you that story?

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I'm no handgunner, but we seem to ignore a lot of history. I think it was called the Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904. Anyway I'll spare you the details...but only one cartridge tested exceeded the .45 ACP...it fired a 265 gr lead round nose at 650 fps...it was called the .455 Eley/Webley. Accounts of British officers serving in trouble spots around the world verified it's effectiveness on the bloody wogs. Many of whom were on drugs. So I suppose you could say that velocity is a small factor in lethality.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Originally Posted by TreeMutt
Jim Cirrillo was a NYPD stakeout squad cop back in the 60s. Was involved in more than 250 shootouts and survived, killed more people than any other cop.

His main weapon was a Smith Model 10, 38 Special. Not sure what loads but back then issue ammo was pretty anemic. I think he rolled his own but not sure.

250 shootouts ????? Come on man, Joe Biden tell you that story?

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I just did a little looking around and the figures run 20 +/- which seems much more realistic.


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I have never shot anything living with any of my 38s except for a couple of armadillos. That said, my model 10 with 158 grain hollow point +P loads sure does a number on milk jugs, watermelons and pumpkins etc. I would not want to be hit with one.


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Originally Posted by mirage243
Originally Posted by TreeMutt
Jim Cirrillo was a NYPD stakeout squad cop back in the 60s. Was involved in more than 250 shootouts and survived, killed more people than any other cop.

His main weapon was a Smith Model 10, 38 Special. Not sure what loads but back then issue ammo was pretty anemic. I think he rolled his own but not sure.

250 shootouts ????? Come on man, Joe Biden tell you that story?

my brother went on the job, NYPD 1978. He knew Jim Cirillo, never worked with him but met him quite a few times. i’m not sure how many shoot outs he had But I think 250 he would’ve been rubber gunned permanently :-) I think he took a couple of guys with a 12 gauge double barrel Stevens. My brother had 8 shoot outs as a New York City police Officer,six on the books two never reported :-) that’s the way it was back then. The majority of his time was spent in the 77 Precinct Utica Ave., Brooklyn, NY. One of the worst precinct's if not the worst precinct New York City, look it up. In his career he was narcotics/stakeout squad, Street crime and gun squad. His last few years he was homicide. he retired as a first grade detective. He retired in 2006.When he was in the gun squad he had 125 guns off the street in one year, They were his collars he told me he gave a half a dozen away to the new guys to give them a gun collar make them look good. my brother always carried two revolvers, a model 10, and numerous different snubnose revolvers over the years. He felt the 38 special was A good caliber it got the job done. he’s got some crazy stories, loved every minute of it until the last couple years in a homicide sounds crazy but that’s what got to him. Sorry for the long post, those guys back then we’re some of the best cops in the world, if not the best. they didn’t have their hands tied, they ran the streets!

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My nephew has only been a cop for five or six years, and has had two shootouts (just him vs the armed perp, i.e., no help). Both times, though, he was toting his AR, and that's what he won the shootouts with. Easy to outrange someone, I guess, who shoots at you with a handgun when your gun is a red-dot-equipped AR. His Glock has never left its holster "in anger."


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Originally Posted by mirage243
Originally Posted by TreeMutt
Jim Cirrillo was a NYPD stakeout squad cop back in the 60s. Was involved in more than 250 shootouts and survived, killed more people than any other cop.

His main weapon was a Smith Model 10, 38 Special. Not sure what loads but back then issue ammo was pretty anemic. I think he rolled his own but not sure.

250 shootouts ????? Come on man, Joe Biden tell you that story?

In a 25 year career - that's only 10 a year or one every 5 weeks....


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Originally Posted by ElmerKeith
Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
[quote=Potsy]


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are Polymer coated 158 grain SWCs.


Inserting shameless link here:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/17745764#Post17745764





It turns the 4" K Frame .38 Combate Masterpiece into a whole other animal.



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Are the 158 polymer coated bullets homemade or factory stuff?


I commercially load this ammunition.

It does not perform like 1980s era anemic typical big box store stuff. Newer powders and modern coatings have allowed the .38 special performance to be significantly improved.


THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.

The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.


The ammo website is up and running!

www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Originally Posted by Ohio7x57
Can and has thousands, maybe tens of thousands of times. A bullet that will penetrate enough to reach the vitals and placed into the vitals will do the job.

Ron

a 22 to the eye ball or knee will generally put some stop to a 2 legged animal


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

thanks for that Hawkeye , good video answers my questions 6" ruger Blackhawk.

norm


There is not enough darkness in all the world to put out the light of even one small candle----Robert Alden .
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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Originally Posted by ElmerKeith
Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
[quote=Potsy]


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

are Polymer coated 158 grain SWCs.


Inserting shameless link here:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/17745764#Post17745764





It turns the 4" K Frame .38 Combate Masterpiece into a whole other animal.



[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Are the 158 polymer coated bullets homemade or factory stuff?


I commercially load this ammunition.

It does not perform like 1980s era anemic typical big box store stuff. Newer powders and modern coatings have allowed the .38 special performance to be significantly improved.



I loaded some “hard cast” poly coated DEWC at what I SWAG-ed to be a little quicker than DEWC bare lead loads. Have not chronoed them. They seem to be well in standard pressure range in a late model Airweight and a Model 15. Next loads will be the 158 SWC coated w/o grooves at either 12 or 18 BH with Power Pistol.

Without digging into actual load data, how do you, with your testing, see pressures of coated lead in the 12 to 18 BH range compare to pressures in bare lead of the same hardness? Or poly coated compared to jacketed/plated. Will probably have to SWAG charges again without published data.


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My old man was (is retired) a surgeon who specialized in trauma. He served in action in Vietnam, worked in Dallas when it was a rougher town, and Detroit when it was the same as it ever was, and quite a few other places.

When I shot a deer with a load of 20 gauge buckshot for the first time, the deer dropped on the spot and we butchered it. Butchering in this case meant a thorough anatomy lesson and dissection for me to learn from. His assessment was that the wound channels looked like someone shot it with a bunch of .38 special bullets. I took it from what he said that he thought a .38 could get the job done, but he always had a handgun handy and never owned a .38 as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by mathman
I just did a little looking around and the figures run 20 +/- which seems much more realistic.

I looked too.

Might have been 252 total for the entire Stake Out Unit.

25 for Cirillo, 10 fatalities.

that seems like plenty of experience


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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Yes, older folks love .38 Special. You can buy excellent ammo in this caliber. The Federal Premium Micro HST +P which was designed for light weight snubs is prime example of that. The HST JHP bullet is completely enclosed in case just like wadcutter target ammo. This prevents bullets from coming out of case under recoil.

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The English gentlemen officers could not cope with large revolvers so the .38/200 was invented. Today it is commonly known as .38 S&W although bullets are lighter in weight.
Going back to beloved round of retirees, life was simpler years ago where there were .38 Special police loads (famed FBI thumper) and target loads. That was when candy bar was 35c. Today when candy bar is about $2 to separate rubes from 💵 the +p concept was invented (from what I see that is the original police load). The modern 9milli honchos have even more complex choices: subsonic, standard, +P, +P+.😱 I freed myself of that BS by choosing .40 S&W.

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Originally Posted by Slavek
The English gentlemen officers could not cope with large revolvers so the .38/200 was invented. Today it is commonly known as .38 S&W although bullets are lighter in weight.
Going back to beloved round of retirees, life was simpler years ago where there were .38 Special police loads (famed FBI thumper) and target loads. That was when candy bar was 35c. Today when candy bar is about $2 to separate rubes from 💵 the +p concept was invented (from what I see that is the original police load). The modern 9milli honchos have even more complex choices: subsonic, standard, +P, +P+.😱 I freed myself of that BS by choosing .40 S&W.

Nugget thinks you are a idiot..


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
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