Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 400 grain TSX in .458 Win Mag: a perfect answer to the 500 grain lead paradigm?

So I went looking for specs on the .458 WM 400 grain TSX and can't find what the SD was on those.

Buffalo Bore load these at ~2250 fps and ~4500 ft lbs with little powder compression. Calculating an SD halfway between the 350 and 450 grainers yields 0.272, which is close enough to .300 especially considering mono-metal, no?

Which leads to questions:
1. So then is the 400 TSX a perfect replacement for the 500 grain solid for dangerous game, given the extra velocity?
2. Does lighter monometal bullet weight also mean less recoil with the same penetration as the old lead solids?
3. Could the 400 TSX be the ideal fit for the .458 WM case, with respect to dropping elephants?
4. To my understanding, Barnes dropped the 400 grain weight due to low demand. Why low demand?

If you check the thread above yours, Gunner 500 has first hand account of a 404 gr Hammer bullet in his 458, it slayed everything near and far. Made his 458 very versatile

Anything other than a very good solid which holds a straight course through at least 2.5-3 feet of elephant is taking a real chance. Especially the case if you plan for any head shots, if you plan to break a shoulder or if you need to fire at a wounded elephant departing the scene of the initial shot. All real possibilities.

As good as the newer monolithic expanding bullets are, deflection with an expanding bullet is still a potential problem with eles in particular, especially when you hit compact bone or skull.

IMHO if you’re looking for an elephant rifle with less recoil than a 458 WM firing 500 grain solids at 2200+ fps MV, you might look at one of the 416s or 404 Jeffery. Most are capable of firing 400 grain monolithic FP solids at 2400-2500 +. These will shoot through an ele broadside and penetrate on a frontal brain shot.

In a 10 - 10 1/2 lb rifle they’ll recoil about 20 ft-lbs less than we well loaded 458.

Another option might be a 450 grain solid in the 458 WM.

Thanks,

1. So I'm barking up the wrong tree and it really ought to be solids not anything expanding.
2. If I want something optimized in the 458 WM, I should consider 450 grain solids.


Taking everything in context, a 400 grain non-expanding solid would be fine, or not penetrate enough?

A 400 grain monolithic flat point solid would penetrate plenty.

The cutting edge ceb solids will penetrate dead straight upwards of 60"s. Do not fall into the SD trap with these bullets. Or how much they weigh. SD has nothing to do with how far they will penetrate, it is all the optimized meplate that gets results.

60" is in the test media 30" of penetration in the media is adequate for African game, so 60" is more than enough

I’ve used CEB Solids on 3 eles. 2 BBW #13s 570 gr 0.510” on frontal brain shots penetrated >3 ft and on the 3rd the 400 gr 0.423” shot through the chest and exited.

Hope to use the 0.458” 500 gr BBW #13 next summer.

The Barnes 450 grain banded solids appear to hit 2100 fps even on the starting loads. Would this be better than compressed loads with the 500 grainers?

https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/458WinchesterMagnum.pdf

if you load your own you can get with a long action like in a CZ 550, 2330 fps with a 450 TSX by loading AA2230 and loading the coal to 3.680 or a 404 Hammer to 2500 fps using the same powder and less coal

Yup, here is a recent exchange elsewhere:

No need to alter your .458 WM if that is all you want to do.
Either of those 450-grainers will easily do 2200 fps within standards for SAAMI pressure (60,000 psi MAP)
and COL (3.340")
from a 24" barrel.

.458 WM+ refers to any handload that might
surpass above MAP or COL.
Whether it is used in a rifle with 3.4" or 3.6" or 3.8" magazine, or a Ruger No. 1,
they all have a standard SAAMI chamber and are .458 WM rifles capable of firing .458 WM+ ammo.
If you allow pressure and COL to equal the .458 Lott,
the .458 WM+ beats the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Winchester, Remington, and Hornady cases are all about same for case capacity, within 2 or 3 tenths of a grain of water gross.
Norma brass is over 4 grains of water greater gross capacity.
The 450-gr TSX at COL of 3.340" should do 2200 fps with about 72 grains of AA-2230.
Might try 70.0 grains as your starting load, your mileage may vary, of course,
due to differences in rifle, brass, primer,
if 2200 fps MV is the goal with 450-gr TSX.

.458 WM+ handloads:

With 450-gr TSX I load it to 3.565" COL in Hornady brass, F-215 primer,
24" Ruger No. 1 barrel
82.0 grains AA-2230
2433 fps at 5 yards at 82*F corrects to
MV = 2444 fps

With 450-gr CEB Safari Solid brass FN, load to 3.360" in Hornady brass, F-215 primer,
24-7/8" CZ take-off barrel fitted to a Pre-'64 WinM70 .30-06 action
77.0 grains AA-2230
2343 fps at 5 yards at 55*F corrects to
MV = 2365 fps

That CEB 450-grainer is probably the ultimate penetrator at 2350 fps MV
in that load that can be used in any of many short-boxed .458 WM rifles I have.

However, the new 400-gr CEB #13 brass FN and the 404-gr Shock Hammer
do add a certain joy de vivre at 2500 fps MV in .458 WM+ loads
at respective COLs of 3.350" (long COL !) and 3.480" (longer COL with the pointy bullet).

Thanks.

I don't have a CZ550 but an FN/Winchester Model 70 Safari Express. Not sure how long the mag length is.

That 2200 fps from a CEB 450 grainer would do me just fine. I guess I'm looking for the minimum bark and punch that would reliably drop a pachyderm (given I do my part). Reading up, I thought if I could get 2150 out of a well-constructed bullet with an SD of .300 or more without compressed powder, then I could have a modernized .450 Nitro Express kind of load optimized in factory .458 Win Mag constraints.

If the magazine on the Model 70 allows it, I might try to load a little longer as I understand the chamber throat allows for that.

I think you will find your FN/M70 has a box length inside that is a little over 3.4".
It is a +3.4" box, a .375 H&H length with a block at the rear that makes it about 0.200" shorter than the unblocked +3.6" length.

Just a side note......
In one of the old Weatherby Guide magazines there is a pic of an elephant taken with a 500gn Hornady soft point with a head shot.
Puzzles me, as I used that bullet at its accuracy point of 2500fps in a scrub bull in Northern Australia and on a shoulder shot, that bullet was found in the membrane between the shoulder and the ribs never making it into the rib cage so I am bedazzled as to how it got though an elephant skull? Just too soft for that velocity?

The .45-70 fans like to point out that their lower velocities mean more penetration with the same bullets, so probably?

It's been fun doing a pile of reading on the .458 WM. Feel like I've got some new flavour on African dangerous game. I'll probably never drop an elephant or a cape buffalo, but really appreciate the ethos and practical attitudes of the people who have been there/done that. I think I would like to develop more instinctive practical rifle handling and shooting skills along those lines.

philthygeezer,
When I gave talks on ballistics I explained that this way....
If you drop and egg on concrete, it will break.
If you toss the egg hard, it will shatter.

A lead core bullet behaves the same way unless you build integrity into its design and they may still inhibit penetration such as bonding the core when tends to widen the expansion which can slow the bullet and potentially inhibit the penetration.

Now if you either dropped or tossed a golf ball onto concrete, it will be relatively unharmed by the contact meaning if you used a homogeneous bullet design such as the Barnes, then irrespective of the velocity, it will likely penetrate much more deeply than the traditional bullet designs and construction.

Using simple examples is more more communicative that standing up they with a "my bullet choice is better than your bullet choice" argument.

When talking about the .458 Winchester, it also mans that those lighter Barnes X bullets in 300gn and 350grain weight can offer a no compromise in penetration, depending on what you are hunting, but offer legitimate consideration as a hunting bullet with lower recoil levels than traditional bullet weights in that caliber, when hunting particularly larger American game.

In everything I tried, I favored the 400 grain weight which is available from Woodleigh and Hammer for handloading as well as Buffalo Bore in factory ammo. That does however, not mean I would shun bullet weights either side of that.

AussieGunWriter: that makes good sense in my head. Thanks.

Seems a 350 grain TSX would out-penetrate a 400 grain A-frame, or at least it would be close. I like the notion of .458 punch with .375 recoil, and think a .458 Model 70 Safari with an aluminum floorplate might be light enough to lump around northern Canada. They are around 9 pounds, and the lighter floorplate would probably take about 1/2 pound off.