Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR My first Shiloh Sharps

I just picked up a new to me Montana Roughrider 45-70. It is used but looks brand new. B6xx serial number. I don't think I have been this excited about a new gun in a long time. I don't know if I will get it out for elk this year but I might take it over to the east side of the state for mule deer in a few weeks. I wanted a rifle made for hunting more than target, this one has a 26 octagon that looks mid weight to me, and the buckhorn and blade sights.
I will have to load smokeless for now but maybe develop a BP load by next season. Any tips and advice appreciated.

Congratulations!
That is a fine rifle!

First advice is to never hot rod it. It's not a Ruger #1 in strength.

Second, there's nothing on the face of the earth that cannot be killed, cleanly and quickly with a 500gr bullet traveling at 1250fps.

Third, get started on the Black Powder loads now. It's not the arcane, voodoo, super difficult method that some make it out to be, and it certainly will not rust your rifle immediately after firing. The Universal Solvent (water) is all you need to clean it if using properly lubed cast lead bullets.

Fourth, you can accurately hit stuff a long way off with those sights, you just have to figure out what the sight picture is for each range.

Buffalo Arms Co (BACO LINK) is the go-to source for a lot of what you will need.

Lastly, there are some really knowledgeable folks here, on the Shiloh Forums, and on Cast Boolits Forums who can give you general advice, or very specific advice on every aspect of he feeding, caring for, and shooting these great rifles.

Ed

According to Kirk Bryan the Shiloh Sharps will handle any load the Ruger #1 can. Having said that none of my Shilohs have sullied by that new fangled smokeless powder


Oh yeah, we need pics

I stand corrected.

And my Shiloh also has never been sullied by that passing fad known as smokeless powder, nor jacketed bullets. 20:1 or 30:1 cast lead alloy bullets only.

Yes, we need pics...

Ed

The MR with a checkered steel shotgun butt is my favorite model got a couple of them. In about 10 days I'll get my second shiloh business rifle a 50-70 it's used but belonged to a friend who has take meticulous care of it.. I know that excited feeling.. lol I'll have ammo loaded for it by Monday. Nothing to get real excited about if your me but it's been shot 500 times and never had the barrel polluted by a greaser slug either all paper patch bullets and bp...mb

That's neat stuff fellas! I too am awaiting my first Shiloh myself. Gunner helped me pick out the build. Surprisingly, it is a 50-90... He said it should be plenty for bucks.. Time will tell

Scott when did you order it?

I'd have to check my invoice, but probably 6 months ago, maybe a few months more, from Bill Goodman.

I'm about just at 1 year ago on a Hartford model order.called them to see where it's at. Ohna told
Me it would probably another 4-6 months before production starts on it. Meanwhile I've got a 50-70 business rifle showing up in 10 days or so. Bought a new Boyt hardcase and sent it to the seller of the gun i,'m buying for shipping it to me and getting it in 1 piece. Those Plano ones don't hold up under ups abuse...mb

I talked to Bill and he said about another month. I’m not sure but I think Bill is the only direct dealer for them so he gets priority on builds and a bit shorter timeline.

I’m fine either way. I don’t even have my stuff set up to load for the big guy right now.

No Bill don't get priority, what he does is place an order or 2 every couple a weeks so he has a dozen or so in the pipeline. So until the gun you buy from Bill goes into production you can change the specs to what you want. After a gun starts production they won't change anything. You'll will like shiloh quality...mb

A friend of mine has family in Standpoint and will be bringing me some BP later this month. Ill start working on loads after hunting season. I have some middle of the road smokeless loads for my marlin that I might try just to see if I can put it to use on a deer. I just don't have the time or powder available yet and I don't think I can wait.
A couple of my main questions are... I'm not sure of the twist rate or what bullet weight to start with, and will I like the sights for hunting or should I look into soule sights or some type of rear peep.

Dogwater , a guy can do a pile of good shooting with iron sights depending on where you hold the blade in the notch. Bill Bagwell who has been mentioned many times in this forum was a master with them. One item to mention is that the German silver front blade does not pickup light real well early or late in the day. Replacing that blade is not to hard with a cut down pre 1982 penny. The one I did following Bill's suggestion ended up cut down to .345" from the bottom of the groove in the dovetail base to the top . I then filed the back side a small 45° angle flat at the top. This like the old Redfield Sourdough frt sight really catches the light. Where at in Montana are you? The factory Remington 405 gr loads are 1300fps at the muzzle and the 300 gr load at 1800fps. The big trick of course is finding them right now. If you look in the thread of the bagwell eulogies someone posted on how to use the rear sight out to 400 or so.???..mb

Edit to add jwp475 originally posted that little 400 yard chart and it was quoted by wood troll on page 8 of the Bagwell eulogies.

OK since we don’t have pics and a Montana Rough Rider and Business Rifle have been mentioned along with Bill Bagwell I will post pics of mine even though most have seen them by now.


The gun on the left is a Business Rifle in .50-90 with semi fancy wood and a pewter forend tip that I bought through Bill Goodman. The gun on the right is special to me. It is a Montana Rough Rider in .40-70 Straight with semi fancy wood, checkering and a Walter Cooper style pewter forend tip. I bought it from Sidra Bagwell, it was one of Bill’s rifles. I have had 8 or 9 Shilohs and you will not be disappointed in their quality

Ron that b gun has some of the nicest "semi fancy "wood I've ever seen. I've got one with semi fancy that has less figure than a menards 2x4. I want them straight grained thru the wrist but figure up front and in the butt is nice..The used bgun I just bought has nice multi hued straight grain. I think the only option it had was glass bedding on the forend..mb

AH! That makes sense. Hoping I get to see it in the next couple of weeks/months. No real hurry though, I sprang for some decent wood and finish, along with some other decent touches. Should be a good looking rifle.

When you order that powder, keep in mind that you'll only get 100 rounds from a lb of it, so order plenty. Don't forget to get a bag of .030 wads.
One other thing you may run across is the cases that have been fired in that Marlin you may have to resize the snot out of to get them to chamber in your Shiloh.
If you're using a 400 gr or lighter bullet in that marlin ,the twist in that Shiloh may or may not shoot those well.

BACO has a 510 grain Creedmoor bullet that should serve well with hunting and long range target shooting. Another good choice on a grease groove bullet is the Saeco 645. 20-1 alloy will work quite well with either of those bullets.

Those barrel sights work just fine for hunting out to about as far as one needs to be shooting at live game. Take a thin Swiss needle file and widen the notch in the rear sight, and you'll be able to pick up the front sight a whole bunch easier. A Ytex ear tag marking pin works well to blacken the front sight once you get that sight filed down to suit your preference for poi at what ever distance you decide to sight it in at. If you decide to change that front blade, my preference is a brass blade. Tried the penny thing and it was ok when it was fresh.
Good luck and have fun with your new treasure.

You can call Shiloh with the serial number and they should be able to tell you the twist

Well based on the op's stated facts of a 26" std oct barrel I'm betting 1 in 18 twist also std. Most guys who order the tighter 1 in 16 twist also get atleast a 30" heavy barrel for target shooting. Where you at in Montana? Lot of 74 shooters and 45-70's up there
.mb

With that B serial number it is likely an 18 twist, but not all the 18 twist guns will start shooting well until the bullet gets above 450 grains, or 1.2 long shooting patched. Going over 530 grains or over 1.4 can also present problems in the accuracy dept.

If you are not a member on Shilo’s forum you should join. A good bunch of knowledgeable and mostly😂 friendly people on there including the owners of Shiloh Kirk and Lucinda Bryant (brother and sister)
https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=3fb6474e7f8230d711b4fffb1a9e2096

Pacecars,
Thanks for posting again. We never get tired of good Quality Pieces, and Mentioning Sir Bill Bagwell, being the previous owner of the Rough Rider says a lot. IMO!

Nice comparable picture of Both.

HS 58

HS 58,
The Business rifle has a connection to Sir Bagwell also. I had ordered a similar .50-90 rifle but with a heavy octagon barrel through Bill Goodman. Right after I ordered it Sir Bagwell let me know that Goodman had just posted the round barrel Business Rifles on his site. We all know how Bill loved the Business Rifles for hunting. I called Mr Goodman and asked if I could cancel the octagon barreled gun and switch to a Business Rifle. Sir Bagwell told me a .45-70 would be better😉. He also saved me money again by telling me to get the heavy bullets with the twist in the .50-90

Range report.

I threw together some 405 laser cast bullets and a starting load of 5744. I didn't chrono but it should be about 1300 ish. I loaded as long as I could without having to force them to chamber. Oal 2.615. I shot at 110 yards. I shot about 3-4 inch group about 3-4 inches high. I really feel the if my eyes weren't 59 I could have cut the group size in half.
Then I practiced on a paper plate sized steel. It makes a nice impressive whack and really swings it around.
I think I am going to start looking for some type of rear peep just due to my eyes, but I am very happy with my purchase and how it shoots!! Thanks to everyone for the tips! I can't wait to try black and some good cast in the future.

Thanks for straightening me out on that. What a luxury it was for all you Fine gentlemen to have known him!

HS 58

Check the diameter of those bullets, your rifle will shoot best with .458 diameter. That much vertical could be either from needing a bit more load development or check your position on the bench making sure that when you settle into position that you don't need to adjust the rifle very far up down or sideways to get on the center.

The bullets are 459. I don't believe it was position. I think if I upped the charge/velocity it might move a bit lower.

When you put the front sight in the rear sight notch, how much of that front sight is showing? A very small change in the height can give you the amount of POI you are experiencing. Also, if your light source is more to one side or the other, it can affect your lateral dispersion.

These things are some of the pointers that Bill Bagwell emphasized when I was shooting with him at his place. He convinced me to go the copper penny route and to bury the tip of the front sight deep in the rear sight notch with just the bright point of light from the tip of that sight showing.

As to the penny getting dull with corrosion, just remember back to those old movies about frontiersmen who licked their thumb and swiped at the front sight before they shot? They were keeping that front sight tip nice and polished.
Aim small, miss small.

Ed

Yes Bill said the same to me and just a few passes of a coat sleave pulls the tarnish off the copper right slick..mb

5744 hits a sweet spot and anything above and anything below isn't going to shoot well. You probably need to spend a bit of time load testing. But given the range report you have a load that will suffice for hunting as is if you don't have time to do a bit more testing. And you may never get that a 405 grain bullet to shoot real well some rifles are just like that.

Bill Bagwell and I talked a lot, I forget now what size needle file he used to open the notch on the Shiloh barrel sight, but as this rifle is used someone may have already done it.
We talked a lot about the front sight thing too. I did make a couple of penny fronts, but when it comes to crunch time and slogging around in the snow storm and that 30 inch mule deer buck stands up at 100 yards and you can't pick that penny up I suppose the time it would take to rub you coat sleeve off won't make much difference cuz he'll be doing the basketball dribble hop over the ridge and gone anyway. Same with still hunting the dark timber and elk... Penny fronts look cool and do work for some things, but my experience says a silver or brass blade gives better results..

Naw Don I only shine it up at the start of the season and it don't catch anymore snow than any other kind. If you just don't like it because I suggested it say so. If you don't like it because Bill B came up with it say so. It was a well thought out idea that flat works and it don't disappear in the snow background like silver does or fade in poor light like black does. You shoot whatever you like but everybody has the right to their own opinion and I'll state mine whether you like it or not...mb

Bob read what I wrote again
I didn’t say I don’t like them because of what you or anybody else suggested
I said I prefer to stick with the silver or brass after I tried the penny sight ,two of them.

When someone mentions a big .50 it gets me interested. I think I have spent enough lead down range shooting my Calamity have great great love for the caliber.
If any of you mew .50 Cal shooters are having a tough time finding brass drop me a line. I know where there are around 600 laying around.

As far as copper or what ever front sight on a shooter, I have used and still use copper, silver, iron and brass beads as well as bronze blade. They all work but I prefer the bronze. It all depends on how the angle is cut on the blade.

Kurt

I always had trouble with the factory silver blade from Shiloh. I love the copper penny Bill put on the .40-70 and I need to file down the “Hartford” sight post on the Business Rifle. I just installed it and haven’t dialed it in yet. It was made by Stephen Borud

Stephen makes a darn good Hartord sight, and it's hard to desitnquish it from the one my original Sharps wears , other than the wear and tear on the original.

I always wanted to get one of Jim Kluskens copies of the Sharps sporting tang sight, but didn't get around to it before he quit, but he did tell me he would try to get one together for me for the next time I traveled to the match at Lodi,, Sadly his sudden passing sure interrupted that deal.

Here is a front sight that Stephen made for my .44-77 hunting rifle. IMG_3235 by Kurt, on [bleep]
It's a proper sight for my Hartford. This rifle is most likely no-one would build because of the Crescent buttplate and light barrel but I wouldn't build a hunting rifle any different.Version 2 by Kurt, on [bleep]

I just put mine on. If you look at the pic you can see it is ridiculously high at the moment

My understanding as well (and my Shiloh also only sees real BP)...

Is that front sight made from a copper penny? I made copper penny front sights for my Ballard and Lyman GPR. They work very well...

No, it's a Brazing rod.

I re read this and noticed I forgot to answer where in Montana. I'm in Clinton. Its about 20 miles east of Missoula. Don't give me a hard time, you know why Missoula is a great place? If you drive 20 miles in any direction you'll be in Montana.

Isn't Clinton the home of the "Testical Festival"?

LHS

Its kind of died out over the past few years