Home Forums Reloading 16 Gauge Society Help with 16ga Bismuth 1oz loads

Looking for help on published 1oz bismuth loads. I have cheddite hulls (once-fired Boss shells), and a source for ch209 primers. I can get my hands on longshot or 20/28 powder. Probably others, but I know these are available locally right now. I have a Lyman's 5th edition, but all the bismuth specific loads are for the SP16 wads, which I can't find. The data sheets here appear to be for lead. I haven't loaded bismuth before, but my understanding is that a 1oz lead wad won't hold a 1oz payload of bismuth. Hence why the SP16 is popular. So what wad combo can I use to achieve a 1oz bismuth load at or near 1300fps with cheddite hulls and ch209 primers? I would prefer not to have to use buffers or wraps. I'm not super concerned about powder migration.

No suggestions? Are there other common 16 gauge 1 1/8oz wads i could look for?

Have you looked at hogdons load data page?

I'm not being smart alecky. Honest question. They have a lot of data for longshot whether 1 or 1-1/8oz.

I recently bought some SG16 wads. I recall seeing some 1 and 1-1/8 oz load data for them.

Best I can remember, the 1-1/8oz loads that hogdon shows with longshot is about 1275 fps is as close to 1300 as I have seen written down with those in a remington hull. I think the Federal hull could can push them a little faster. But I have no cheddite hulls, so I'm not much help unfortunately.

The 16 ga data available here has a ton of cheddite load data on it. Just not sure if it's what you're looking for.

The SP16 wad (remington) was very popular for years until the bankruptcy stuff. I haven't seen any available since then unfortunately. Maybe never will?

Yes, I looked there, and they have load data for the cheddite hulls, but only using Universal powder. I'm not sure I can get ahold of that, but let's say I could. The issue is, these are specified as "lead" loads, and 1oz of bismuth won't fit in a 1oz lead wad, or so I've read. The load data they have is for the WAA16 wad or the G/BP 16. The WAA16 is a 7/8-1oz wad, I don't "think" it will hold 1oz of bismuth, but I am new to bismuth reloading, so I'm going on what I've read. The G/BP 16 I can't find good data on. I go to the Hodgdon wad substitution page and the link to the chart is a 404 page not found (https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/wad-substitution-chart)

So I was hoping that someone with experience reloading bismuth could point me in the right direction. Hodgdon does have 2 recipes specifically for bismuth in the Fiocchi hulls with Fio616 primers.

fio, fio616, 1oz shot, 26gr longshot, g/bp 16 - 8800 PSI, 1350 FPS
fio, fio616, 1oz shot, 27.2gr longshot, g/bp 16 - 10,200 PSI, 1400 FPS

I have read that some recipes interchange the fio616 with ched209. This same data sheet has a load with Fiocchi hull with a ched209 primer:

fio, ched209, 1oz shot, 28gr longshot, g/bp 16 - 9500 PSI, 1400 FPS

All things being roughly equal, 28 grains of longshot with the ched209 results in 9500 PSI, while 27.2 gr longshot with the fio616 results in 10,200 PSI indicates the fio616 is a hotter primer.

It then seems reasonable that I could use this as a baseline:

ched, ched209, 1oz shot, 27 gr longshot, g/bp 16 - (calculated PSI 9160), ~1300-1350 FPS

I've also noted that these recipes specifically for 1oz of bismuth are using the g/bp 16, so maybe my concerns there are unfounded. But the Lyman's guide also has no 16ga recipes for Cheddite hulls (bismuth or lead). I realize that a lot of 16ga shooters are fine with lead, either hunting upland or shooting targets. I want to continue hunting waterfowl with mine. If there's a guide that actually has options, I'm happy to buy it.

Now, the data sheets available here on this forum have 22 loads for Cheddite hulls with 1oz shot payloads all using the SG16 wad. There are a few for universal powder and 1 promising recipe with longshot. But again, these are for lead. So what I need is someone to tell me that these same recipes will work with bismuth, the 1oz load will fit in the SG16 wad, I can get a good crimp, and all will be well.

Trudge some data here https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load09_14_18.htm

Uhhmmm....if I can be nosy, what are you hunting that requires non-toxic shot....or is non-toxic just a personal preference? ....or is it just the "bismuth"?
Just curious. 😐

I'm hunting waterfowl, primarily ducks. I'm currently using 1oz Boss shells and getting great results. I won't shoot steel through my Sweet16, and I am finding that I get fewer cripples with bismuth anyway. I want to reload to save a bit of money, but mostly to get some control over the loads. Still looking for some assistance btw. Some folks have reached out to me and shared data, and I reached out to Hodgdon to ask if they had recipes other than what are posted in the load database, but they said they do not. Primary issue I'm running into is that the only loads I can find published recipes for require hulls other than Cheddites, and that's all I have, and all I can buy. The few cheddite recipes I have found call for Universal or Green Dot powder, both of which are also unavailable.

To clarify, here are my restrictions:

Hulls - Cheddite or bust. I can't find any source for anything other than Cheddite. This is what I have and what I can get.
Powder - Hodgdon: Longshot, Lil Gun, Titewad - Alliant: 20/28 - Winchester: 572
Wads - SG16, Z16 - Maybe others, but these are the most commonly used anyway. I can't find a source for the vp80/tp1680 wads that would allow me to use the recipe in the BPI Bismuth Loading guide for their 7/8 load with longshot.

Those are components I have or know I can get. I'm looking for a 1oz load, though willing to use 7/8 or 1 1/8. Looking for FPS 1250+. I have yet to find a single load that can use these components.

In the BP Advantage loading book look at ITX-10 data. ITX-10 is nearly the same as Bismuth. a soft non-toxic shot between steel and Bismuth. I use the data for both my ITX and Bismuth loads but I do load low pressure 2 1/2" loads as all my loads are in pre-WW-II shotguns/drillings.

This works for me but do this at your own risk or give BP a call and see what they think about substituting Bismuth for ITX

ITX isn't something I know much about. I've read BPI is the sole seller, and the only thing they list is BB and 00. Anyway, I don't mind contacting them and asking, can't hurt. I've avoided the Advantage guide because I've heard it doesn't have much that I haven't already seen for bismuth and mostly is a brochure for products they sell exclusively. I suppose that'd mesh with the ITX stuff. One of the people who reached out to me directly sent me the info to get ballistics testing done through precision. I might just do that, it's not all that expensive. I can extrapolate a decent recipe and send it off to them for testing. Still surprised this is so difficult to find with what seems like all of the commonly available materials, but it's a point in time. Maybe as little as a year ago what was available was all different.

Like you, I've had trouble finding a bismuth load with available components.

I just had a load tested @ Precision using:
16ga 2 3/4" Win polyformed (some consider Cheddite to be the same)
Cheddite CX2000 primer
SG16 wad
21 gn Winchester 572 powder
1oz. Sphero Bismuth

Avg Velocity 1247 fps Avg Pressure 7070 psi

This only reflects my personal experience. Please don't consider this a recommendation.

Thanks for that, it's actually really useful to give me a baseline. I talked to Alliant this morning, and they don't have any info that's not already published. The guy was really helpful, just stated that cheddite have only really been the go-to thing for the past two years, so there's not much data published on them. That said, I'm resigned to loading up a couple different loads and sending them off to precision myself. Your load is a great starting point. I've read the discussions on are or aren't the cheddites and the win polyformed the same. Sounds like as long as you have "newer" polyformed they are. So thanks again, I'm not planning to load up a bunch and go shooting, but it's an excellent starting point for what I want to send out to Precision.

Comparable Lead Loads:
Win 16 Poly 1 oz 572 21.2 CCI 209M BPI SG 16 1220 7,300 Hodgdon
Win 16 Poly 1 oz 572 22.7 CCI 209M BPI SG 16 1275 8,100 Hodgdon
Win 16 Poly 1 oz 572 22.8 CCI 209M BPI SG 16 1300 8,900 Hodgdon
Win 16 Poly 1 oz. Longshot 25.3 CCI 209M BPI SG 16 1350 8,900 Hodgdon 2000
Cheddite 1 oz Longshot 28.0 Ched 209 BP Z-16 1500 10,500 BPI

Your bismuth load:
Win 16 Poly 1 oz 572 21 Ched209 BPI SG 16 1247 7,070 KB Tested

Just comparing your load to published lead loads, it performs incredibly similar to a 21 grain lead load with a CCI primer. Since I can't get ahold of 572 powder, it looks like I'll start my testing around 25gr of Longshot. Probably:
Cheddite 1oz bismuth Longshot 25.0 Ched 209 BPI SG 16

I would anticipate a pressure around 9,000 and a velocity near 1350. That would leave me margins to tweak a bit for patterning.

(Sorry, the formatting doesn't carry over when I post)

Trudge, Winchester 572 is available right now (Nov. 11) from the Hodgedon website. I based my load on the Hodgedon lead data with a Win 209 which I had already loaded. What gave me the idea was that there was too much room in the lead load making room for a full oz in the Bismuth version. You may not have as much room with 4 more gn of Longshot.

Looking forward to your results. More options is always good.

Yeah, I saw that Hodgdon must have just completed some production. The hazmat and shipping fees are a real killer though. I managed to pick up 1lb locally this weekend (of both 572 and longshot) and I'll keep an eye out for more. Still waiting on some shot and primers to arrive. I'll absolutely post the results when I get some ballistics testing, just might be a few weeks.

I feel the pain of the hazmat fee. I'm consoled by the fact that I can still load it cheaper than Bass Pro is selling 1oz Kent Bismuth loads for. Plus, it's a lot more fun than buying a box of shells. (hoping no one audits my price per load accounting :))

My costs are getting frustratingly close to what I can buy Boss shells for. I look forward to having control over the load, but it's getting close to cost ineffective. If I load 1,000 shells the savings would be greater, but that would also last me a few years.

Did some swapping with a guy on here for a 16 ga MEC 600 Jr. Only, when I got the loader home, it was for a 3" .410! LOL!
I have a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge loader.....and now a .410 reloader, but I only shoot 16 gauge! LOL!
So no, I don't really have any info for you. Sorry.

I gave up waterfowl with the lead ban. All my shotguns but one are "pre-lead ban". I don't shoot steel in any of them.
I did buy some tungsten ($6/shell!) for my .410 to shoot turkeys, but at that price, I hate to shoot them!

As I've mentioned in this thread, the Boss 16 gauge shells are, well, I won't say reasonable, but they aren't $6/shell. I can reload cheaper in today's market, but only slightly. By my current calculations I'm saving about $.20/shell. If I had the time to wait for everything to be available locally, I'd save more. Shot is the biggest expense, and I paid more for sphero-bismuth than what I could have bought rotometals for. Not because I thought the slightly rounder sphero would pattern all that much better, but that I didn't realize how the discounts for multiple 10# bags of rotometals worked until I'd already made an order. Shot being the most expensive component, it would have saved me a fair amount more. But if you just want to shoot your 16s, I'd check out Boss. They're consistently cheaper than hevi-bismuth, etc.

Did you buy Tom Rosters book on Rotometals website?
I supported him by buying his book and look forward to reading it.
I am like you and was able to buy Cheddite shells. Mine are 12 GA 3" and 3 1/2". I have no specific load data for those shells with bismuth, but after getting Tom's book, feel I will. Tom was very helpful on the phone, so although I can't remember everything he "shotgunned," he will help after I read his book (to try to help myself first).
I think there are wads, powder, primers, shells that will work, but there is the whole liability thing that hovers around you know.
Buy the book and help a good guy, Tom Roster.
If anyone has load components to help me get the right stuff for my Cheditte hulls, I would appreciate it.
Thanks

Steel is no longer considered a no/no with modern offerings and mod or less. The Brits are going no lead and using modern steel loads in old British best.

It is also out there in print and on you tube. However, most here will not be open minded enough to come around.

[quote=battue][quote=MartinStrummer]

I
Steel is no longer considered a no/no with modern offerings and mod or less. The Brits are going no lead and using modern steel loads in old British best.

huh?

And you being a UK shooter????



Modern USA guns have the wall thickness to handle steel....And the Brits are even shooting standard steel in much older ones...However again, i doubt many here will think it possible..However as in England, lead here is most likely on a short string...and in fact in some states and specific locations it is already banned. Do as you wish....myself I am willing to pay for bismuth because I think it performs better than steel. However, have used TSS without issue, which is even harder than steel. Either way, lead likely will be banned soon, and we better be willing to accept the new science of steel or other alternatives.

Have been thru this before and expect the responses to mostly be the same..."Damed if I'm going to shoot steel thru my Beretta or Remington or etc, etc....

Addition: Personally I wouldn't shoot steel in a shotgun with thin wall chokes....However, most standard chokes today are steel proofed or they are available.

I bought and use Kent 1oz bismuth loads #5's for 16 ga a couple years back. They work fine. Pretty sure they are still made but finding some might be tough..mb

Not sure who you're trying to convince, but I hunt with steel out of my 12 gauges. But I have an older 16 gauge I love to hunt with, and it's thin metal and fixed full choke. I won't shoot steel through that, not because it's a super expensive gun, but because it will pit and destroy the choke over time, no question.

I haven't followed up on this thread for awhile. Through the data I gathered and some helpful advice from others, I have some recipes I'm working up that I'll send out for testing. But I ended up running low on shells and time, so I bought another case of Boss for this season, so I'll be working on it after the season ends at the end of next month. When I get results back, I'll post them here.

As erich briefly suggested, give Ballisitc Products a call and ask for advice. They know lots of stuff about all of this--and are continually experimenting to increase their knowledge.

Not trying to convince any, however pointing out to one who said they wouldn’t use steel, that it is no longer considered bad for modern day shotguns.

Prefer bismuth or TSS myself if lead is not allowed in certain situations.