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Szihn. That was the big problem when magnums first came on the scene and everyone got magnumitus.The tried to use the same bullets as they did with non-magnums. If it weren't for all the magnums, we probably wouldn't see all the so called premium bullets on the market today.

Last edited by saddlesore; 11/08/22.

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I think heavier bullets are better than lighter.

I also think busting the mid scapula compared to the scapula/ humerus junction, will result in more of the DRT effect.

The spine, brachial plexus, and Aorta lie medial to the central scapula region.

Last edited by Angus1895; 11/08/22.

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Originally Posted by Plumdog
Originally Posted by saddlesore
I have killed elk witha 7 mag, .06, .308 and a few more. Most with a heavy for caliber bullet or a partition As state the quality of the bullet has a lot to do with breaking shoulders, but am not a fan of that shot.

I have read some guys say they would rather take home half an animal with shot up meat than none. I'd rather wait for abetter shot presentation and take home a whole animal with no blood shot meat
I agree. Wait for a good shot, don't blow up the bones, and don't keep pumping lead. They will fall over soon enough with a lung/heart hit.
I disagree. I've seen some wonky things, even from well-hit elk. I shoot until they drop, and coach others to do the same.

I also coach not to take "raking" shots. I've seen the hind end of a mature deer stop a 200gr Partition from a 300 SAUM from approximately 400 yds. We found that bullet in the guts, having penetrated 10-12". Not at all what I (or the shooter) had expected.


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
I have killed elk witha 7 mag, .06, .308 and a few more. Most with a heavy for caliber bullet or a partition As state the quality of the bullet has a lot to do with breaking shoulders, but am not a fan of that shot.

I have read some guys say they would rather take home half an animal with shot up meat than none. I'd rather wait for abetter shot presentation and take home a whole animal with no blood shot meat
Another +1

I started elk hunting as a meat hunter. I had shoulder mounts of my two best 6x6 bulls, but all of the little white packages of delicious elk meat in my freezer were the real trophys. Now many years later all of that meat has been eaten but I still do enjoy looking at those mounts in my Trophy Room.

Over many years of harvesting elk, I learned to prefer the broadside, right behing the shoulder shot. A little over 10 years ago, I built a .300 Weatherby for my primary elk rifle. The first elk that I shot with it was with a 168 grain TSX bullet. He was standing broadside and I shot him right behind his shoulder. At the shot he jumped about 3 steps and fell dead.

Prior to this .300 Wby, my primary elk rifle was my .30 Gibbs shooting 180 gr Partitions which usually left about a 1' diameter of bloodshot meat around the bullet entrance hole. So I was very pleasantly supprised when the 168 gr TSX bullet from my .300 Wby left less than a fist size amount of bloodshot meat around the bullet entrance hole.
This first picture is the 168 gr TSX bullet entrance, and the second pic is of the bullet exit.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So a few years later when I shot my second bull elk with my .300 Wby I was shooting 168 gr TTSX bullets. This bull was standing quartering to me just a few feet on my side of a fence that I didn't have permission to hunt on the other side of. Then, because my previous TSX bullet made such a small amount of bloodshot damage, I when against my own rule of shooting behind the shoulder, and I shot this bull on the point of his shoulder.

This bullet hit and shattered the large upper leg bone right at the shoulder blade joint and made about 1' diameter of bloodshot meat through his shoulder. He fell dead where he was standing, but at the price of some pounds of delicious meat.


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Obviously there is heart lung area caudal to the front leg.

But not much.

They got 13 ribs……the diaphragm lies roughly between # 6 and #7. The lower ( more ventral) you go the less lung tissue lies behind ( caudal) to the front leg.

If you use the size of a paper plate for error of you point of impact. And your point of impact is caudal to the scapular humoral junction.

It is my belief some of that paper plate would lie caudal to the thoracic cavity.

Last edited by Angus1895; 11/08/22.

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I've just taken my 30th elk this fall, and have been present / helped for just under a hundred elk kills. In my experience, given enough odd opportunities, bullets can do some wonky things.

Broadside thorough the scapula is a shot almost any decent bullet can make on an elk with excellent results. But I try to avoid shooting the humerus/scapua joint because I've experienced that joint stopping some bullets dead, with no further penetration. That's happened twice with 150 grain and once with 165 grain cup and core .308" bullets from .308 and .30-06. Range 80-150 Meters. A few times I have seen similar .270, 7mm and .308" bullets do the job with that placement. But it can be unpredictable.
I have found 250 grain bullets from my .35 Whelen rifles more reliable when that joint is hit. Barnes copper bullets, Nosler partitions and Speer Grand Slams have all done good work.

The oddest incident was a nice little 5 point bull that I shot exactly on the humerus/scapula joint at just under 100 meters with my .375 H&H. Bullet was a 260 gr. Nosler Partition at about 2700 FPS muzzle velocity. The bull was quartering towards me. At the shot there was a loud crack as the bullet hit just where I aimed and he hunched up. I'm not one to "admire my shot" - I shoot again if they are hit but run.

I'm very glad I put another quick shot into him as he ran, even though I shot him the first time in a good spot with a big rifle and good bullet. When we butchered him I was astounded to see the first bullet never entered the chest cavity. Almost the entire scapula was in pieces. The bullet had smashed the humerus/scapula joint, the shock broke the scapula, but the bullet deflected at about a 45° angle along the scapula muscle, upwards and outwards, and lodged near the ribs/backbone/scapula junction. I probably would never have caught up with him if I hadn't shot again.

Those who wrote that .270/7mm/.308 bullets are "plenty" when shooting shoulders aren't wrong, but the devil is in the details.

Last edited by castnblast; 11/08/22.
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Picking the intersection of the center of the neck with the center of the front leg gives you positive landmarks. And easily on an elk a medium pizza plate covers lethal tissue if hit.

Surely blood shot meat is only enjoyed by dogs.

But a gut shot elk may end up enjoyed by none of your family. Only the mountain.


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I wish I would have read this thread before I butchered last night. 308 win, 150 e-tip broke the shoulder joint on a big cow from 50 yards. I ended up throwing a big portion of the near-side shoulder away. Bullet was caught in off side hide behind the main shoulder joint. I'd be curious how that bullet-load combo would do at distance.


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Here is a 165 AB from a 30-06 that was tight in the near side leg and found in the joint in the far side.


[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

That’s a nasty joint no matter how you slice it.


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Oldquailhunter: I have harvested my share of Elk and have NEVER had to shoot one "through the shoulders" - shooting Elk right behind the shoulder through the heart/lungs will render an Elk dead in 6 - 8 seconds and they will have bled out internally/externally! Not making a huge bloody mess of bloodshot and useless meat because of a "shoulder shot".
FMB.
Look skeptically, VERY SKEPTICALLY on ANYONE who advocates shooting Elk "through the shoulders"!
Sheesh.
I shake my head.
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Sometimes some people hunt elk in rough country where either A: anchoring one where it stands is important, or B: you may not get a nice broadside shot so you can stay off the shoulders.

I’ve shot them through the shoulders, even one that needed to stop right now because he was wounded and it that caught one up the seat of the pants as he ran straight away.

A bird in the hand and all that

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Dead on the spot, shoulder shot
If he can run 50 yards, heart lung.


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I have photos of a whitetail dissection on image gallery.

How do I post those images here?
Thanks


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I have shot at least 15 bulls with. 7 mag and have never found an elk shoulder it wont smash


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Dober sent me these.

140 Berger, elk knuckle joint at 100 yards

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

60 grain Hornady HP at 100 yards

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

Looks like they would’ve nose dived pretty well from either one.


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Yeah, Dober has changed his mind considerably on elk cartridges since he firmly believed in the .340 Weatherby.

I have occasionally found it worthwhile to use a pretty stout bullet when hunting elk in thicker timber, which some of us used to do in Montana back when they were mostly found there--and occasionally in other places as well.

One was a 6x6 bull, quartering toward me in thick stuff at 75 yards. The realistic shot was through the shoulder joint, and the 200-grain Nosler Partition not only broke the joint but exited at the rear of the ribcage on the opposite side...


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I had a crappy quartering away angle on my bull last week at 285 yards. He stood there after the first round hit him at the back of the rib cage and spiraled into his 15 yard death run when the second round hit him in the base of the neck. He pumped a lot of blood where he was standing and like a garden hose to where he crashed. I don’t have a nice bullet collection as the 168 gr TTSX’s usually exit the dead elk before he hits the ground. You don’t have to shoot such a bullet from a .300 Weatherby, but it sure has worked for me. Zero lost elk, most DRT. Happy Trails


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A whitetail


I give up.

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Last edited by Angus1895; 11/10/22.

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That post about the 375 amazes me.


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