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I think they could have recovered from the loss of the 6th Army...but they still were going to loose the war. They were in excellent defensive positions far into enemy territory. The killer mho was the offensive in 43 which should have never happened and the subsequent collapse of army group center in 44 with the red army operation bagration


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Quak
[quote=deflave][quote=Quak]WWII in europe was decided at the gates of Moscow in the Winter of 1940-41. It was all downhill from there. There was nothing the Gernans could have done once Barbarossa was crushed that could have saved them from their eventual defeat. They were not set up for attrition.

Personally i wish Hitler would have destroyed the soviet barbarian horde completely. Then the US could unleash the dogs of war and destroy the Germans in due time...and we could have.

The world has never seen a more efficient killing machine than the US. It would have been nice to have had communism dealt with in the 40s...instead we fight it still today and within our own country.

Imagine the combined strength of the US Navy and Army...we would rule the baltic...the black sea...you name it. We could have fielded 300 divisions if we wanted to. 6 divisions of combat hardened marines with the blood of the japs still dripping from their bayonets...marching t


Russia crushed the germans in front of Moscow, they crushed them in front of stalingrad, they crushed them at kursk, they crushed them in Bagration, and they crushed them in Berlin.

Where was mother green when all that was happening? [bleep] around in the desert and getting chewed up in france by conscripted cripples from the east


Hitler's stupidity caused that. Thanks to him, Barbarossa started six weeks behind schedule because he had to bail the Guineas out of Yugoslavia and Greece,, but once it launched, the Germans were going through Russia like a hot knife through butter even though they were grossly outnumbered. Then in the middle of everything, he decides to push south and weakens Army Group B on the drive to Moscow so by the time they got there they had no reserves. On top of everything else, he orders the taking of Stalingrad knowing full well superior Russian armies were massing on the flanks with only Rumanians holding part of the line, then with gives the stand and die order to von Paulus when they still had ample time to withdraw, Kurks was the same deal and by the time they got to Berlin, the German were all but spent, then again check the casualties Heinrici handed the Russians at the Seelow heights. All the Russians knew how to do was die in mass numbers, Yes they did bleed the Germans, but face it , without the US, the Germans would have won.


We can debate why they lost at Moscow...but it doesn't matter...they did. The war was over at that point...they didn't just loose or get stopped at Moscow. They got crushed and damn near enveloped by a huge soviet counter offensive. The stand fast order i was referring to was the winter of 41 post moscow...not at Stalingrad. Had the germans not stood fast in 41 the front would have collapsed.

The 6th army could have and should have been saved in 42. It was an avoidable tragedy. The silver lining though is that it did occupy a large amount of soviet forces. But every silver lining has a tough of grey.

Last edited by Quak; 11/10/22.

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Originally Posted by Bristoe
Originally Posted by Quak
The thing about russian skill is this...early on it was weak but they got better and better. The red army was a pretty proficient killing force by 44

I don't know how proficient they were about it. But the Germans lost 500,000 men between 42 and 43 when they laid siege to Stalingrad.


They came into their own in late 43 and 44. Check into Bagration sometimes...strategically brilliant and brutal. Its what really crushed the germans...of course by then the Germans were already bled white and very weak...and facing a war now on three fonts which is certainly a big part of Bagrations success.

Last edited by Quak; 11/10/22.

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I for one think we should have attacked the soviets and re-armed the german units in the west. With total air superiority and nukes at our disposal...we would have been unstoppable.

Mix in the capitulation of Japan in the pacific...man o man that would have been a fight

Last edited by Quak; 11/10/22.

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I’d say that our fuel, food, and equipment and our tying down the Japanese made victory possible for the Allies. Our largest contribution to the European theatre was our sea power before and after our entry and our Air Power after we entered the war.

As far as our ground forces in the European Theatre, we fought a depleted Africa Korps (that didn’t even have Rommel at this point) and still managed to get our asses handed to us at Kasserine Pass, never managed to take Italy, and, thank God for George Patton or Ike, Brad, and Monty would have stood at Normandy with their thumb up their ass until the Russians met them on the French coast sometime in early ‘46 (which at times I’ve wondered if that wasn’t the plan all along).

But, yes, Flave is right. Without our equipment, Navy, and Air Force, the whole of Europe would be speaking German……

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Originally Posted by Potsy
I’d say that our fuel, food, and equipment and our tying down the Japanese made victory possible for the Allies. Our largest contribution to the European theatre was our sea power before and after our entry and our Air Power after we entered the war.

As far as our ground forces in the European Theatre, we fought a depleted Africa Korps (that didn’t even have Rommel at this point) and still managed to get our asses handed to us at Kasserine Pass, never managed to take Italy, and, thank God for George Patton or Ike, Brad, and Monty would have stood at Normandy with their thumb up their ass until the Russians met them on the French coast sometime in early ‘46 (which at times I’ve wondered if that wasn’t the plan all along).

But, yes, Flave is right. Without our equipment, Navy, and Air Force, the whole of Europe would be speaking German……


The soviet fleet had total control in their theatre...un opposed virtually by the germans...the germans had almost no surface fleet and the Russians certainly didn't need our fuel or tanks. We gave them trucks...we gave them spam...and made promises. Thats about it.

We did provide obsolete p-39s and very limited numbers of p-40s but with little to no spare parts they made little difference. By and large the russians flew soviet plans and drove soviet tanks and fired soviet small arms...and raped german women

Last edited by Quak; 11/10/22.

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Originally Posted by Quak
[quote=Potsy]I’d say that our fuel, food, and equipment and our tying down the Japanese made victory possible for the Allies. Our largest contribution to the European theatre was our sea power before and after our entry and our Air Power after we entered the war.

As far as our ground forces in the European Theatre, we fought a depleted Africa Korps (that didn’t even have Rommel at this point) and still managed to get our asses handed to us at Kasserine Pass, never managed to take Italy, and, thank God for George Patton or Ike, Brad, and Monty would have stood at Normandy with their thumb up their ass until the Russians met them on the French coast sometime in early ‘46 (which at times I’ve wondered if that wasn’t the plan all along).

But, yes, Flave is right. Without our equipment, Navy, and Air Force, the whole of Europe would be speaking German……


The soviet fleet had total control in their theatre...un opposed virtually by the germans...the germans had almost no surface fleet and the Russians certainly didn't need our fuel or tanks. We gave them trucks...we gave them spam...and made promises. Thats about it.

We did provide obsolete p-39s and very limited numbers of p-40s but with little to no spare parts they made little difference. By and large the russians flew soviet plans and drove soviet tanks and fired soviet small arms...and raped german women[/quote




Good points all, but without our air and sea power providing food and material to the Brits, they would have folded, then the Russians would have had to face the full brunt of the Luftwaffe, which they never did.

Last edited by Potsy; 11/10/22.
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I'm not a Hitler fan he was a power hungry madman that's saving a seat in hell for Obama and other great orators that brought death and misery to many others. He was a total racist that judged everyone by demographics not psycograhics much like today's leftists. Hate-filled little man always blaming someone else for his problems. Hitler was just like the democrats of today.

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The turning point of the war was Operation Uranus in November '42, the Soviet counteroffensive against the combined Axis 6th Army under Paulus that were fighting in and around Stalingrad. It hit Paulus' flanks, 50 miles north and south of Stalingrad, and cut his main army off from logistical support. The goal was to force the 6th Army out of Stalingrad. The Soviets did not believe the Germans would stay, once surrounded.

When other German forces were redirected south to try to reopen the logistical lanes, instead of allowing the 6th Army to fight their way west to meet up with the relief forces, Hitler ordered them to stay put in and around Stalingrad, and not give up any ground.

The relief forces were unable to break through, Paulus' army was besieged, and went down to defeat, needlessly costing the Germans 250,000 men.

None of that would have been possible had the USA not been supplying the Red Army with everything from airplanes and bombs to tents and boots.

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Even if the Germans took Stalingrad they still loose the war.

War was lost the previous winter.


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I’m also curious as to what planes, boots and bombs we supplied that turned the table on the 6th army. Any evidence or sources?


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There is also a fair amount of evidence to suggest that even when a link up was authorized Von Paulus failed to act. He was poor commander and the blood lies at his feet imho.

Hitlers field marshals disobeyed him all the time…no reason that Paulus shouldn’t have done the same. Do you honestly think had Manstein or Model had been in charge of the 6th it would have been lost?


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Without US aid to the Soviet Union, they would have lost to the Germans. The most important items that the US provided the Russians was chemicals to manufacture ammunition and explosives. The Russians had a very limited capacity to manufacture those items. Without that they would have had to fight the Germans with only bayonets, no rifle or machinegun ammo, no shells for artillery.

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Originally Posted by Quak
There is also a fair amount of evidence to suggest that even when a link up was authorized Von Paulus failed to act. He was poor commander and the blood lies at his feet imho.

Hitlers field marshals disobeyed him all the time…no reason that Paulus shouldn’t have done the same. Do you honestly think had Manstein or Model had been in charge of the 6th it would have been lost?

My "links are called".....books.

You might want to familiarize yourself with them. They are quite useful for learning things at a much deeper level than Wikipedia.

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I have several hundred in my library on the subject. Perhaps not the books you got your knowledge on the subject from...which were likely high school social studies books written in the 50s.


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Originally Posted by HoosierHawk
Originally Posted by Quak
There is also a fair amount of evidence to suggest that even when a link up was authorized Von Paulus failed to act. He was poor commander and the blood lies at his feet imho.

Hitlers field marshals disobeyed him all the time…no reason that Paulus shouldn’t have done the same. Do you honestly think had Manstein or Model had been in charge of the 6th it would have been lost?

My "links are called".....books.

You might want to familiarize yourself with them. They are quite useful for learning things at a much deeper level than Wikipedia.


Id be open to any book titles you would suggest...any sources really.


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Boomers view on the deuce...LOL

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Originally Posted by Quak
I have several hundred in my library on the subject. Perhaps not the books you got your knowledge on the subject from...which were likely high school social studies books written in the 50s.

Several hundred books on how the USA supplied the Soviet Union with materials during WW II?

Damn, your library undoubtedly rivals the ancient Library of Alexandria!

I'm not a Boomer, by the way. Your use of the term does, however, reveal your approximate age and precise mindset.

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As prophetic as Der Fuhrer’s words may seem, the Third Reich lasted 12 years while America is 246 and counting.


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Originally Posted by viking
It was that obvious back then eh?
no

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