Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB's Creed article

Was reading my Oct. '22 Handloader mag and really liked JB's article, "The 6.5 Creedmoor Again". I know that subject has been beat to death, but JB does a great job, as usual.

A couple of his loads caught my eye. The 140 VLD Hunting over 46 gr. RL-26 at 2,835 fps, posting .54" at a hundred. Now, that one has promise, gonna load some of those. Another was the 127 LRX over 44 gr. StaBALL, shot a .99" group. He was shooting a Vanguard First Lite, which seemed to perform very well. There were a number of great loads, those two tweaked my interest.

Thanks John, for your attention to detail and excellent articles.

DF

JB, how about an article on the 260Rem. Surely there is still some love for this little gem.

IIRC, John still has a 1-8” Tikka .260. As to whether or not someone will pay him to write about it, who can say?

Maybe in one of his books?

I love Creedmore articles…. It’s fun watching the new kid on the block struggling to keep up with my 6.5x55.

Yeah, I can stretch my Swede to out run my Creed by a little They’re pretty close with select loads they like. The Creed shoots more loads MOA or better than the Swede. I like them both.

Nonetheless, like the Creed or not, it was a very well done article, which was my point.

DF

Velocity wasn't the point of the Creedmoor.

Your 6.5x55 would have trouble keeping up with my 264 Winchester magnum, as would the Creedmoor. Again, not the point of the Creedmoor.

Very true.

And your .264 may not keep up with my 26 Nosler.

But Creed isn’t a speed demon nor was that its mission.

DF

Not surprised on the RL-26 load. I swap in the 143 ELD-X there and it's been accurate in a couple of rifles while making good velocity in 18-21" barrels. Wish I'd picked up some StaBall before the latest component shortage.

I enjoy watching all the folks that see everything new as some kind of threat to what they already have, not just the Creedmoors and PRCs, and not just rifles either.

There’s seldom a good reason to abandon something that works for you just to keep up with the trend, but there’s also generally no reason to buy into the old stuff when newer stuff has an advantage, and more options available. I made certain my newest .223 had a fast twist, and I’ll probably never buy a new .243, because newer 6s are better designed, and give me more choices for bullet selection. That reasoning applies to optics, clothing, and electronics, and doubtless other stuff that eludes me for the moment.

Exactly.

When people write things like "If I get some Lapua brass and develop a handload for my 6.5x55 that's built with a carefully specified chamber cut in its Shilen/Hart/Krieger/Brux/Bartlein/whatever barrel ..." they're making part of the case for the Creedmoor. See the John Barsness quote just below..

Actually, the part about enjoying it was a lie. It’s a good illustration of human nature, (like I needed any more!), but it’s kind of tiresome. I need to let that go, I guess.

Nah, can’t let it go. Might lose your Loony card.

Ha!

DF

I was fortunate enough to snag a big jug of RL-26 back when I could, have two bottles of StaBALL.

RL-26 works so well in the 7RM with 160’s, it’s good to see it performing in the CM. I just never tried it in that round.

DF

I have a custom 6.5x55, Brux barrel, 26" that I use on Power and Gas lines. Also, shooting the 127-130g bullets at 3150 with R#26 with cci 250 primers, Lapua brass. My Creed, 6.5x55, 6.5/06 are on Rem long actions, the 6.5x47 Lapua is on a Rem short action.

Thanks, glad you liked the article!

That's actually the third article I published in Handloader on the 6.5 Creedmoor. The first appeared in 2010, the second several years later, after a number of new powders and 6.5mm bullets had appeared. After that time the editor of HL said he wasn't going to run any more articles on it, because he was tired of looking at 'em--but had to change his mind after a bunch of subscribers kept demanding more info. Which is why he assigned me this latest one. As I pointed out, even a few powders have been introduced with the 6.5 Creedmoor in mind. But I don't plan on doing yet another "update" down the road.

I also found it interesting that some Campfire members still have to comment on any 6.5 Creedmoor article by stating their 6.5x55 or .260 will do the "same things," even do 'em better. I have owned several 6.5x55s and .260s, and have one of each now, a custom 6.5x55 on an FN Mauser commercial action rebarreled with a 1-8 Lilja by Charlie Sisk, and a Tikka T3 .260 with a 1-8 twist, part of a special run ordered by Whittaker Guns. They both shoot very well, in fact about as well as the average 6.5 Creedmoor factory rifle--though I had to lengthen the magazine on the Tikka to match typical Creedmoor accuracy. And neither the 6.5x55 or .260 will do so with factory ammo--IF you can find any.

John

JB.... the last sentence was the kicker that got me to buy a 6.5 Cr. (for my wife, of course, ahem... cough-cough) in 2019. Having messed around at the benches, both reload and range, I had found some good loads for my 6.5x55, as you have done as well. But for our Africa trip that year my wife needed a rifle that we could get factory ammo for instead of relying on my sporadic reloading bench output. So the Howa 6.5 Creedmoor Mountain Rifle became hers.

Since then, I acquired a Ruger Precision Rifle in the same chambering. This happened at the insistence of a good friend who runs a range in Wisco and teaches precision riflery, and who had ten of the RPR's on hand for his classes. He told me I really needed to buy one of his "old" RPR's, as he was getting in some new ones. I demurred, telling him I had more than enough rifles already, including a custom job that could reach out and touch a critter waaaay far out there.

We were at his range at the time. My friend invited me to "just shoot it once", and since he was supplying the rifle, ammo, and targets, who was I to refuse? So I settled behind the rifle and aimed at the 1000 yard gong, a 36" steel plate, squeezed the trigger, and was shortly rewarded with a sharp ringing tone. This was in the spring last year, mind you, and I had not fired a rifle for any purpose for several months at that time, so I naturally concluded it was just a fluke, and I told him so.

"Shoot again, and see," he replied. So I did, knowing it couldn't happen again. Except it did. And so did the 3rd shot. I missed the fourth shot, and hit again on the 5th.

I turned to my friend and said, "Shut up and take my money."

I took the rifle with me to Wyoming this past September on my my trophy pronghorn hunt (I burned all 13 of my hard-earned Preference Points to get drawn in an area where the bucks are big and the outfitter has a high success rate), and it served me well, allowing me to collect a 87-1/8 (green score) buck at 536 yards.

As a longstanding confirmed 6.5 Creedmoor hater, this is a problem.

Good account there, Doc.

And, like you, I do agree with JB’s last statement regarding factory ammo. I’ve long contended that the ammo/rifle package made the CM what it is. For reloaders, maybe not as critical, but for those who don’t reload, those looking for low cost, high performance rifles and ammo off the shelf, the CM is in a pretty unique position.

The numbers speak for themselves. People do vote with their dollars.

DF

Dirtfarmer, FWIW I have played with a lot of different handload recipes for the 6.5 Creedmoor, and nothing I have put together so far is as accurate as Hornady's factory ammo with the 143 gr ELD-X. This is not something I've come across before... I have found that I can typically produce ammo that meets or exceeds factory ammo performance in most of the cartridges I reload. Not so with the 6.5 Cr... but in all fairness, I haven't tried ELD-X bullets in my roll-your-owns yet. Maybe it's just that much better a bullet than the others I've tried so far. I hope to do the Hornady component test this winter.

We hear that regularly about factory CM ammo. And it’s not over priced, seems to be available. What’s not to like.

Ya reckon haters are just jealous?

DF

Doc, have you tried the 139gr Scenar with H4350? That and the 143 ELD X factory load are very accurate in my rifle.

Be my guess just finding the 143 eld x component bullets will be the hard part...mb

If I weren't a handloader, I'd probably never have gotten a 6.5X55. If I hadn't ever gotten a 6.5X55 I might well have gotten a .260 Remington at some point. If I hadn't gotten either, I might well have gotten a 6.5 Creedmore (I may anyway, sometime, or a 6.5 PRC.) As it is, I am solid curmudgeon. Hell, when the .260 Remington came out I scoffed..."What can it do my 6.5X55 can't do with a good load?" If I'd gone the .260 route, I'd be asking what the Creed can do the .260 can't do.

Actually, for the vast majority of hunters, none offer any particular advantages, we might even throw the .264 WM in that group. The average hunter doesn't often shoot deer-sized game much beyond 300 yards if that. I've killed them out to 400 with my 6.5X55 easily enough.

But it's all good fun.

Didn't know it was a race. It's all in good fun!

Bought a chit load of prime ammo years ago for mine.Were it not for the fact that non tox is needed in Ca I would not reload for the creed. The LRX's and RL26 work for me.

That’s fine. It’s likely what 6.5 CM has to offer, you could never realize, that’s why it’s so easy to compare to your 6.5x55

There’s seldom a good reason to abandon something that works for you just to keep up with the trend, but there’s also generally no reason to buy into the old stuff when newer stuff has an advantage, and more options available. I made certain my newest .223 had a fast twist, and I’ll probably never buy a new .243, because newer 6s are better designed, and give me more choices for bullet selection. That reasoning applies to optics, clothing, and electronics, and doubtless other stuff that eludes me for the moment.[/quote]

Very well said!

Nossir, I haven't yet. I'll put them on my list in case the ELD's don't work out.

Suprisingly not. I have 4 boxes of them waiting to be tried. They were easy to find on several websites when I went looking.

Yeah, I agree completely. I am definitely well into the curmudgeon age bracket, and seem to have been pretty happy taking most of the heads of game I've taken in the last 25 years with (mostly) the same 5-6 cartridges/rifles. I have no need for a new caliber, so finding out I like the 6.5 CM so much was a definitely unlooked-for surprise.

As for the distances most game is shot at, Mule Deer has commented on this before so I won't belabor the point... but the vast majority of game animals are taken within a fairly short distance, less than 150 yards if I recall correctly. In my own hunting records, such as they are, the vast majority of my venison has been collected at ranges of about 125 yards or less. While I can shoot a lot farther than that, and have done so when there was really no alternative, I like to get close if I can. It's the essence of fair chase, to me.


Truer words were never spoken. Good hunting, sir.

JB:

Thanks for another well done write up.

I, too, always find it interesting when people comment on new cartridges with statements to the effect that the new cartridge won't do anything that a fast twist, properly throated, long mag, etc, XYZ won't. Such juxtapositions really miss the mark of what a lot of new cartridges have to offer. Being able to buy a factory rifle that's optimized for factory ammo that's loaded with the bullets you'd like to shoot and is actually available for purchase is quite a lot to a lot of people.

I like to pull the trigger a lot, but sometimes life gets in the way of having time to hand load, so I appreciate rigs for which good factory fodder is available.

The Creed is fun to shoot, doesn’t kick hell out of you. It is a perfect caliber for young and old, plus all in between.

JB, a good title for another article might be What ( the fugh) Can XXX Do That My XXX Isn't Already Doing?

We hear it all the time at the campfire so there should be a lot of interest in such an article.

I'm as guilty as anyone of getting tired of the almighty Creed crazy, but that doesn't take anything away from the cartridge itself. I really like the design and if I wasn't already up to my ears in 7mm-08 stuff, and starting out new, I'd have one.

I don't know about 6.5x55 factory ammo, haven't bought or shot any for a very long time, but the 260 REM Hornady Superformance 129 grain SST has been just as accurate as the same brand, style, and bullet in 6.5 CM for me. I got a deal when this ammo was being closed out for $8 per box if I bought all 30 boxes that the dealer had. Shoots good groups from multiple rifles, Remington bolt guns and my Savage 99F. The Superformance 257 Roberts ammo shoots pretty good groups from your old Mexican Mauser too.

I can't remember the last time that I saw any factory ammo in 6.5x55, 260, and dozens of other old standard cartridges for sale, but it has been awhile. Heck, I've only seen 30-30 factory ammo of dealers' shelves within the past couple of months, a shortage that didn't even happen after the Connecticut school shooting back in 2012. Makes me glad to always keep a dedicated lot of ammo for each rifle that is in the rack.

Up to your ears in 7mm-08 stuff is a pretty good place to be for a lot of shooting tasks.

Last year I got myself into 7mm-08 and also fully stocked! It's the modern man's non-manbun cartridge.

Between my 7mm-08 Encore rifle and Kimber sporterized 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser I just never felt the urge to get a 6.5 Creed. I've seen them used on game and a buddy has one and I do some reloading for him. It's a nice cartridge but I'm already happy in a ballistic way with my current 6.5x55 & 7mm-08. The 6.5x55 I refer to as a 6.5 Swedemoor.

I like my 7-08, too. Probably use it more than my Swede or Creed. But JB’s new article has interested me in trying some of his loads in the Creed.

Loony stuff, for sure.

Deer don’t know the difference.

Not sure hunters can tell much difference, either.

DF

I bought a 6.5x55 -- Husqvarna M96/38 -- when I lived in Germany. Worked fine for reh deer. Didn't try to use it for red deer or chamois; my limitation was about scoping the rifle, not the cartridge.

Back here, I eventually got a Remington 700 Ti in .260 Rem. Worked fine for whitetail, and for javelina at distances. Decent 100-yard groups, easy enough to get down around 3/4" with a 8x scope. My limitation was that the barrel was a bit long for my taste, the bolt didn't seem to cycle quite as smoothly as I'd hoped for, and the safety is different from the Model 70 I have.

So I eventually/eventually got a Kimber Adirondack in 6.5 Creedmoor. Even lighter weight, shorter barrel, the bolt seems to run more smoothly, and the safety works like my model 70. Sighting in a different scope just the other day, I got several 3/4" groups (mostly with the Hornady and Berger factory ammo I had on hand) with the 5x scope. No game with it yet, but it "carried" nicely in the woods last year.

I do recognize the theoretical difference with twist rates and longer bullets... but so far, I don't see any usable difference, for me, between the cartridges. For me, it's only been about the platforms.

-Chris

Last weekend I got to hear some more uninformed anti-Creedmoor blather. One of the guys shot a nice buck through the chest with a 308. After the shot the buck went a little way but was easily found. A member of the audience at the skinning shed took the opportunity to make sure everybody knew if he'd been shot with a 6.5 they'd still be out there looking for him.

My wife got a Creedmoor 4 or 5 years ago. The same guys I work with that thought her 250 Savage is great for deer love to expound on the 6.5 Creed being inadequate for any big game.

Absolutely. With different brands and bullet weights, I counted 14 different offerings for 6.5 Creed at my local big box store yesterday. I can't tell you the last time I saw a box of Swede or 260 for sale.


As an aside, the only other cartridges with as many offerings as the 6.5 Creed are 308 and 223. They had half a dozen flavors of 30-06, and a couple for 300 Win. Mag. They had a couple kinds of 270 (and it's the first 270 they've had in a year) and one kind each of 7-08 and 7 Rem Mag. They had no 243 and have only had a few boxes in stock all year (I'd like to know why). 257 Roberts and 25-06 are nonexistent.

I handload and am very glad I do these days, but if you don't handload the 6.5 Creed is easily one of the best options going.

I believe you. A salesman at a gun store last week confided to me that a lot of people are now finding out that the 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't have enough power for deer. I thought about asking if he'd ever been hunting and/or mentioning that I find a 223 adequate and a 243 more than adequate for deer but decided the comment might sail right over his head.

Sounds like skinning shed wisdom, for sure.

DF

If I'd wondered aloud about how had Scandinavians been getting it done just fine on much bigger "deer" with the same ballistics it would have flown right over his head.

[/quote] My wife got a Creedmoor 4 or 5 years ago. The same guys I work with that thought her 250 Savage is great for deer love to expound on the 6.5 Creed being inadequate for any big game.[/quote]

That's because "everybody knows" that inches are a lot bigger than millimeters....

I don't hear much about how crappy a deer cartridge the Creed is, I hear many more stories saying it replaces all other cartridges and is the best thing since LED flashlights.

Come on folks. Think how many big game animals the 6.5x55, 6.5x57 have killed. The CM is just another version.

Not so certain.
Using my inferior Swede as an example, I have found it to not reach
enough velocity for certain bullets to kill well.

Different bullets, it now does very well.
Pretty certain there are some factory Creed loads that might be the same.
Different shot placement, bigger deer, luck....YMMV.

That's because "everybody knows" that inches are a lot bigger than millimeters....[/quote]


Same reason when I bring the 9.3x62mm to the "Big Bore Shoot" I tell 'em "it's a .366 Bock". A .366 is thumbs up, however, a 9.3 anything is suspiciously small...

Curious about the bullets that worked/didn’t work for you. All I’ve shot deer with in my 6.5x55 has been 130 grain NAB’s and , now, I’m using 130 SGK HPBT. I’m not pushing them hard, running just on 2700 fps, but those two are working okay for me. The Sierra I’ve just started using, but it seems to work.

There a link to this article?

Buying a new rifle and ammo for the 6.5x55 is the biggest challenge here in this neck of the woods.

OTOH .... Lots of 6.5CM rifles and some very good ammo as well to be had.

https://www.sportsmans.com

In the magazine rack.

So you're gonna retire the ol .308 Win and get on track with the modern world.

Nice.

Not sure how you got that out of my post? I've owned a 6.5 CM going back over four years. It won't be replacing my 308's.

Matching bullet construction with velocity for optimal performance is an art form.

For example, one would think a mono wouldn’t have a velocity ceiling. Well maybe, maybe not.

My .240 Wby shooting the 80 TTSX at 3,600 fps didn’t work so well on a WT doe. Huge blast effect on chest wall, underperformance inside the chest.

That gun shines with the 100 NPT and that’s the load I’m sticking with. Seems to be an optimal balance, speed vs bullet design, accuracy and terminal performance.

Experience trumps theory.

DF

Not 6.5, but in my 7-08, my fav bullet is the 140 Sierra HPBT. It’s the most accurate, has great terminal performance at 2,700 or so.

I like it even better than the 120 NBT, my prev fav. Both are killers, the Sierra a bit more expansive and with good exits.

DF

Just pokin a bit of fun.

No problem John

Hope you're well...

Good.

I know the way you hunt it would be hard to find a better round than the good ol .308 Win for killin bulls.

The Creed is a very nice round, & if one doesn't already have a 7-08, 270 Win, or a 280 Rem, all of which are ballistically essentially the same, given the right bullets, then the Creed is a no brainer.

What it has going for it is a short action, mild recoil & a nice size package, properly twisted barrel & excellent factory ammo loadings availability.

But if you have one of the other 3 above, there's no real significant performance gain.

The 270 with a Nosler LRAB, for example, is a virtual dupe, ballistically, (ditto for the
7-08 & 280)............albiet in a heavier package with more recoil & it's a handloading only proposition.

I'm sure I'll end up with one, just because, but not because I need it nor because it will measurably outperform what I already have.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

MM: I agree completely. And for my purposes, I could add the 25/06 and my fav, the 257R.

But I just got a M70 6.5CM, and I must admit was impressed when the 1st 2 three shot groups, with factory ammo, were less than .7” (Hornady and Winchester) Talk about the easy button!

And I don’t give a hoot about the BCs. I never shoot at anything beyond 300, maybe 350 at a pig!

I have a number of similar performing rifles, overlapping the CM. But I also have a CM. I’d do it again.

DF

LOL, The Queen of DaNile!

You guys are gonna talk me into building more 6.5 mm CMs.

Well, you could make a worst choice, like a 308, or a 30-40 Krag............................jusy sayin.

MM

As I've mentioned before, I gave my Swede, which I handloaded and hunted with since forever, to my nephew as a reward for completing putting himself through college. He always liked that rifle.
It also came with 100 rounds of handloaded 140 gr. Partitions. As an aside, a couple of COVID hunting seasons past, I sure was missing those Partitions.

Imagine the shock and possibly horror about 3 seasons ago when I showed up in Elk camp with a one of those dang CMs and - OMG - FACTORY AMMO
Some of the regulars were sure I wuz gonna dye my hair and grow out a manbun. Now that would NOT be a pretty sight.

Now 3 seasons later, the sun still rises and sets on schedule, the haircut is still high-n-tight, and that little whipper snapper of a cartridge has put 6 Elk in the freezer. Just like the Swede would regularly do.

Huh, imagine that.

Puddle,

Ya reckon them elk can tell the difference between a Swede and a Creed? Well, dead elk can’t talk.

Doubt hunters can tell any difference, either.

DF

One way to describe it is a Swede with better logistics.

Can't say for sure, but I think one Elk gave me a sideways glance thinking "at least he 'aint using that damn .257 Roberts..."

if i was a young growing family and i had to pick a cartridge today it would be the 6.5 Creedmoor reason ammo is easy to find,less recoil and this is the big reason : everyone would have the same dam cartridge. but myself now at 69 years of age my family the ladies and kids all have a 257 Roberts now ,son and i a 257 Weatherby mags. , but like i said if it was now today all of us would be using a 6.5 Creedmoor. simple makes the hunt go so much easier when everyone one has the same dang cartridge , i also kinda feel these Ruger #1`s work easier too and are safer too for ladies and youth.

We thought this old bull died, no one had seen him in a long time, caught him at a water hole last week, 6.5 CM worked fine with a 139 Scenar, DRT. Rio7

Also enjoyed the article. Was at a local big box LGS and looked at a Weatherby Firstlite rifle. The forend seem very flexible like some of the early RAR’s. I didn’t see JB mention this in his article. Also mentioned in GG4 as a good rifle. Is this a common feature of this rifle?

SWJ,

The forend on my First Lite is NOT "very flexible like some of the early RAR's." In fact it is very stiff--which I mentioned in the article.

Thanks for the reply. Must have missed that in the article. Will have to go back and check the rifle out again. I liked it overall but was surprised by the flex.

I think monos most certainly do have a optimum velocity window. For instance my brother shots a 300wsm and I a 300 RUM. Both use 175GR LRX bullets. My load is 300 ft per second faster, yet his gun always seems to kill stuff faster given similar shots.

BWalker,

The LRXs are designed to open easier at lower, long-range velocities. As a result sometimes the petals come off at closer ranges and higher impact velocities. This generally results in a smaller wound channel.

Buddy of mine has two 6.5 Creed's and they are accurate and capable. I even reload some of his ammo because I'm retired and he's not. It's probably a better all around cartridge than my old 6.5x55 Swede in a sporterized Mod. 96 with a B&C stock and a Dayton - Traister trigger. I describe it as a 6.5 Swedemoor and I like it enough that I'm not gonna run out and buy a 6.5 Creed. If that ain't enough there's a T/C Encore rifle in 7mm-08 here so I really don't need a Creed. JB's 6.5 Creed article was cool in that he mentioned his "normal test load" of 41.5 gr. of H-4350 with a 140 gr. bullet. JB has mentioned that load previously on this web site and I can say that it works in my buddies 2 Creed's. Another friend has a loaner Ruger American in 6.5 Creed from a friend so his niece can sit in his enclosed blind this weekend and maybe get her first whitetail. That will also be using JB's test load. Only deviation from JB's load is a 140 gr. soft point blem bullet that Midway was selling a year or two ago. He bought 500 of 'em and they shoot good.

Thanks for sharing that.

Actual experience can sometimes veer from theory and conventional wisdom.

DF

Back when anything bonded was unobtainium (at least for me) I worked up a load for the 143 gr. ELD-X using 41.7 gr. H4350.

Afterwards, the first bonded bullet I got my hands on was the 143 gr. BondStrike, which I simply backed off the existing load just a tad and eventually discovered it liked the same 41.7 gr H4350 charge but seated just a little farther out.

Happy Camper.

Hello John, I am aware that the LRX opens a bit easier.
I will say I have never noticed any small exits with either cartridge while using the LRX. I might also say my observation doesnt have any sort statistical validity, but its my observation none the less.
This year we both shot mature muley bucks. And the entrance and exit hole diameters where nearly identical with golf ball size exits for both.
Overall I am.happy with the LRX. It's the best mono I have used before...but they don't kill like a 180 BT!