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Good morning folks! I'm not much of a handgun guy so I find the need to ask the very knowledgeable folks here a question or two. I have a dear old friend I've know all my life (who's even less of a handgun guy then me) who bought 2 Ruger LCR's (his wife's is an LCRX) for concealed carry a few years back. He lives in northern Michigan and seems to be having lots of trouble finding 38 special ammo. Anyway since I handload I thought I'd load up enough to keep him out of trouble the rest of his days. He's not a computer guy either (very old school) so he doesn't go online shopping either. Anyway I bought a S&W 686+ back in the early 90's (357) but used to shoot lots of 38's in steel shoots and plinking at the range. My health is real bad so I haven't played with my few handguns in quite a while so I gathered up around 300 rounds of target loads (wadcutters and swc's) for them to practice with and loaded up another 300 rounds of what I considered carry rounds (I don't carry so it's guesswork on my part). 110 grain XTP's with 5.2 of Titewad, 125 XTP's with 7.0 of Longshot, 140 XTP's with 6.4 of Longshot and finally a few rounds of 110 XTP's with 7.6 grains of Longshot. The 110's with the 7.6 load are supposed to be at least 200 fps faster than the Hornady Critical Defense loads while the rest are claimed (in the load manuals to be right around the same as the Critical Defense loads). Of course all are JHP's which I thought would be the best option but reading thru some of the posts here find that maybe hardcast might be a better choice. I know nothing about cast bullets so I never looked into them at all.

As I said my health is real bad and I may be bed ridden in a short while so I'm trying to setup friends and family with what they might need in the bleak future our country seems to be headed in. What are the folks here using for carry loads in their short barreled 38 revolvers? I really don't want to load much more for them only to find out the JHP's are inconsistent in expansion and penetration and I should have set them up with hardcast! I'm not trying to start any arguments but I'm really lacking in knowledge and don't have the time and ability to do my own testing. I have no intention of laying around in bed for years making the medical money machine a small fortune at my expense so I'd like to get these folks setup with loads at least before I pull the plug so to speak.

I'd really appreciate your input on these loads I've given them already and what might be a better option for them before I run out of time!
Thanks for the help!!!!

OH, also it's like pulling teeth trying to get them to practice and give feedback on loads! Kinda frustrating! Funny, most of the guys Ive spoken with thru the years all claim to love to shoot, but trying to get them to a range is again like pulling teeth! I just don't get it!

If hardcast is your preference, please let me know what and where to find em if ya don't mind.

Last edited by GhettoSportman; 11/16/22. Reason: brain farts

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They will find those revolvers are pretty snappy in 38 sp. My wife's S&W Lady Smith sure is.

I taught Basic Pistol Courses for several years. Just about everyone who bought one those small light weight handguns, ended up not shooting much because of the recoil. Once they shot a few of those faster loads, they shot even less.

Personally, seeing as they don't shoot much, I would load up some hollow base wad cutters, backwards, with about 3 gr of Bullseye.

Not much of defense firearm, but I would rather see a person carrying a 22rf that they shoot a lot than a 9mm or 38 that recoils so much,they won't shoo it enough to be effective in a self defense situation.

Carrying a less penetrating round that they can shoot well is better than loading those faster ones and the gun sits on the night stand and isn't carried.
I appreciate your situation. I am not as bad, but not far from it.

Last edited by saddlesore; 11/16/22.

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Thanks! I figured the lighter bullets might not be as snappy as the heavy stuff but wanted to give enough velocity stop the threat (hopefully). I gave them some wadcutters (but not backwards) with around 3 grains of 231 but they haven't even tried any of the practice rounds yet. And since the snow is on the ground up there, they probably won't until spring. Unfortunately I think they believe just having a gun makes them safe but I keep trying to explain it may not help at all if you can't use the damn thing!


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IMO for what it’s worth, for self defense in a northern climate where multiple layers of clothing could be encountered I would be heavily inclined to go with a hard cast for reliable penetration. Had erratic performance of HP’s (even XTP) on deer from a 41 mag. The cavity on HP’s can get plugged up with clothing and fur.



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I have a S&W airweight & my wife has a Ruger LCR both in 38 spl. These are our CC guns. What I did is to buy from Mackay_Sagebrush some loaded ammo. It's 148 grain wad cutter. He is licensed to make& sale ammo. That's what I put in both our revolvers. It seems like you want to hand load for your friend but this maybe an easier route. Also go to U tube & find Paul Harrell. He's done a few videos on the 38
& sub-nose revolver. He's already done the work. Really good information there.

Mackay is here on the board. You can find him thru the search feature. He's a stand up guy.

Last edited by colorado bob; 11/16/22.
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Originally Posted by Swifty52
IMO for what it’s worth, for self defense in a northern climate where multiple layers of clothing could be encountered I would be heavily inclined to go with a hard cast for reliable penetration. Had erratic performance of HP’s (even XTP) on deer from a 41 mag. The cavity on HP’s can get plugged up with clothing and fur.

I just read that yesterday after already loading a bunch of hp's for them. Also told them to shoot the damn things and let me know how they handle it. BUT they seem to feel better just having something to load them with.

This has turned out to be much more than I thought it would! Just load some up and send it to them, but after reflecting on it it's a lot to take on the responsibility for someone else's carry and defense! I hope I don't let them down. Couldn't live with that. Much more serious then hunting or plinking!


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With the potential for multiple layers of heavy clothing…..go with hard cast, wide metplat bullets. If you can find some, or have someone cast them for you…..a hard, 148 grain wad cutter would do quite nicely for defense! memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Originally Posted by colorado bob
I have a S&W airweight & my wife has a Ruger LCR both in 38 spl. These are our CC guns. What I did is to buy from Mackay_Sagebrush some loaded ammo. It's 148 grain wad cutter. He is licensed to make& sale ammo. That's what I put in both our revolvers. It seems like you want to hand load for your friend but this maybe an easier route. Also go to U tube & find Paul Harrell. He's done a few videos on the 38
& sub-nose revolver. He's already done the work. Really good information there.

Mackay is here on the board. You can find him thru the search feature. He's a stand up guy.

Thanks so much! I did want to load for them as we both had lots of brass already and I had primers and powder so it seemed it would be cheaper than what their charging for defensive loads. But like I told my friend, cost for loads to protect you and your wifes lives is better than the result of bullet failures or not being able to hit the perp!

I have read a few post where Mr. Mackay chimed in and he seems to make good loads that lots here are happy with. That may be an option also. I've been footing the bill for these loads (my friend is quite the penny pincher) but can't do it for much more. Have my own family to setup for also!

I will look up Mr. Harrell also and watch some of those videos also!

Thanks again!!!


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Originally Posted by memtb
With the potential for multiple layers of heavy clothing…..go with hard cast, wide metplat bullets. If you can find some, or have someone cast them for you…..a hard, 148 grain wad cutter would do quite nicely for defense! memtb

Thanks! I'm finding that out just a little too late! lol Hope I can find some as I don't know anyone else who loads or does cast bullets. Seems like after all these years I would have met someone at the ranges who likes handloading and has lots of knowledge of cast bullets. Wish I would have had these forums when I started handloading! Could have taught me and saved me lots! lol


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Well seems unanimous! Hardcast seems to be the way to go! I'll have to start searching!

Thanks so much fella's!! Sure appreciate it!


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my advice would be for you to go online and buy factory ammo for your friend. A box of 50 would probably be enough since they don't shoot and probably won't practice. Any sort of 'defense' type would most likely be just fine.


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Originally Posted by Mannlicher
my advice would be for you to go online and buy factory ammo for your friend. A box of 50 would probably be enough since they don't shoot and probably won't practice. Any sort of 'defense' type would most likely be just fine.
Yeah I'm starting to think that myself! Maybe a couple of boxes of Mr. Mackay's loads would do them just fine! Thanks!!!


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If I were in your position, I’d order several boxes of Mackay Sagebrush’s 148 gr Hard Cast Wadcutter loads.


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Originally Posted by chlinstructor
If I were in your position, I’d order several boxes of Mackay Sagebrush’s 148 gr Hard Cast Wadcutter loads.

I was just at his site but the store is under maintenance at the moment. Appreciate the help!!! Thanks!


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Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Originally Posted by chlinstructor
If I were in your position, I’d order several boxes of Mackay Sagebrush’s 148 gr Hard Cast Wadcutter loads.

I was just at his site but the store is under maintenance at the moment. Appreciate the help!!! Thanks!

I bet you could PM him and he’d get you fixed right up.


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Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain JHP (FTX) +P.

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Originally Posted by chlinstructor
Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Originally Posted by chlinstructor
If I were in your position, I’d order several boxes of Mackay Sagebrush’s 148 gr Hard Cast Wadcutter loads.

I was just at his site but the store is under maintenance at the moment. Appreciate the help!!! Thanks!

I bet you could PM him and he’d get you fixed right up.
Yep. I sent him a message thru his site. I'm checking around but the more I look the more I think I want to buy for Mr. Mackay!

Thanks!!!


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain JHP (FTX) +P.

I loaded quite a few slightly higher velocity than the Critical Defense loads (with the 110) but with the xtp as Hornady isn't selling the ftx (in 110 anyway). Would the flex tip make that much difference in performance than the xtp? Worried about penetration thru heavy coats as I live in the north country.


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Originally Posted by chlinstructor
Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Originally Posted by chlinstructor
If I were in your position, I’d order several boxes of Mackay Sagebrush’s 148 gr Hard Cast Wadcutter loads.

I was just at his site but the store is under maintenance at the moment. Appreciate the help!!! Thanks!

I bet you could PM him and he’d get you fixed right up.

100%. As a matter of fact, my LCR is stoked with his target hardcast 38’s.


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Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff
Originally Posted by chlinstructor
Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Originally Posted by chlinstructor
If I were in your position, I’d order several boxes of Mackay Sagebrush’s 148 gr Hard Cast Wadcutter loads.

I was just at his site but the store is under maintenance at the moment. Appreciate the help!!! Thanks!

I bet you could PM him and he’d get you fixed right up.

100%. As a matter of fact, my LCR is stoked with his target hardcast 38’s.

Thanks! Appreciate it!!!! I'm sure he'll get back to me thru email or phone soon. Might be he's out chasing deer!


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