|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 357
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 357 |
Completely disagree with everything you’ve stated.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,851
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,851 |
Tks for this. 800 buffalo in his lifetime, 23 using a .22 Savage Hi Power. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._D._M._BellHunting lions at 16, meat hunter in Alaska, cavalry during the Boer War, WWI fighter pilot (beginning at age 34), competitive ocean sailor. 1,011 elephants down from close range, average of 73 miles walking for each. Extraordinary, one of those guys you’d never believe could exist if this were fiction. I am wondering how he escaped malaria and a whole gamut of parasites and diseases in Africa.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,030
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,030 |
I just got a copy of Keith's Gun Notes and read a few of the letters in the back, between Keith, Truman Fowler, and Jack O'Connor.
Have ya'll read that? Man those guys were going at it! Kinda brutal at times. But they still had class and would sometimes end with, "I'll buy you a drink when I see you"
Some of it was about small vs. large bores.
Last edited by JD45; 12/09/22.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,364
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,364 |
FO1,
Maybe so--but know he wrote this:
"I was using at that time a very light and sweet working .256 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine weighing only 5-1/4 pounds. With this tiny and beautiful little weapon I had extraordinary luck, and I should have continued to use it in preference to my other rifles had not its Austrian ammunition developed the serious fault of splitting at the neck. After this discovery I reverted to my well-tried and always trusty 7mm. Mauser."
--Bell of Africa
John JB- Bell of Africa, along with The Karamojo Safari and African Rifles and Cartridges along with P.O Ackleys handloading books are responsible for my rifle lunacy. 
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,028
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,028 |
I’m sorry but success with a 7X57 on elephants in Bell’s hands is no different than a baseball bat in Babe Ruth’s hands. Neither the rifle or the bat made the difference, and too many people think they can kill an elephant or hit a home run with the same tools that someone beyond their capabilities was able to accomplish… You could always practice a bit. ![[Linked Image from media.tenor.com]](https://media.tenor.com/L-NZq29GI1wAAAAS/justsaying.gif)
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 11
New Member
|
|
New Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 11 |
If after all his experience he says a 30 cal with a 220 grain projectile at around 2400 fps would be his preferred choice, doesn't that mean he thinks such a choice is better? Am curious: Have had that issue of American Rifleman in my library for a long time (along with hundreds of others). Did you see that in the article, or somewhere else? This would seem to describe the .30-06 with 220s. But in this article he makes comments that would seem to contradict it: "My reason for preferring the .308 case is because it is shorter than the .30-06 M2. My only really close calls in hunting African game have come from the too long bolt travel of bolt-action rifles.... With sighting ranges of three yards or so, the backward bolt travel is apt to be cut prematurely. The empty case is not ejected, but reinserted in the barrel and you have a misfire at contact range." I realize I'm late to the party, but in a letter to Denis D. Lyell ( published in African Adventures, Letters from Famous Big Game Hunters) Bell mentioned that his ideal rifle would be .30 caliber with a 250 gr bullet at 2,500 fps. I don't have the book on my shelf anymore, so I can't quote exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Bell had a privilege that “none” of us will never have! Almost unlimited time and opportunities to take game and no lost money on licenses when the animal is wounded and lost! LoL, you really need to read more Bell. He tells of times when it could be weeks or months without shooting elephant while on safari, and tells of his safaris which were profitable and non-profitable. Seems to be overlooked here that Bell killed in open country where stopping a charge didn't happen.
When "heffalumps" moved into thick cover the big bores were necessary.
and for all kinds of game." -Bell (page 6, W.O.A.E.H) For those who care to read Bell thoroughly, he cites/describes specific occasions where he is killing elephant in heavy foliage...and that open country shots were rare. Why just in the first chapter; "hunting the big bull elephant" (pages 1- 4)..it's mentioned numerous times that bulls spend their day hrs in the dense bush. And this from page 9, chapter three; "The body shot on elephant" " Never turn your back on him,while you can see him you know where
he is. And besides you cannot run in the thick stuff without falling."
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 362
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 362 |
It would be interesting to see how much penetration you can get with a 7X57 by doing a test on an elephant already killed.I wonder if it is the same as the more common rounds used on ele like the 470 and 500.That said I remember reading in Ian Nychen's " Months Of The Sun" that some ele would come back to life when shot by a 375 compared tp a 450.
Last edited by swiftshot; 12/12/22.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
I once read that the elephants Bell shot with the 7 x 57 had never really been shot at before and this allowed him to easily get amongst them and use a small bore. As I was not there, I can't say how accurate this is - any comments?.. Chapter 4 (W.O.A.E.H), Bell tells he tracked elephants for 16 days straight and couldn't get close to them..On other occasions he had native crews drive them out of the dense tall stuff into a prepared clearing where Bell was waiting with his gun bearer...other times he used a ladder to shoot over 14 foot tall grass.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Somewhere I remember reading where Bell claimed in his later life
that the 308 Winchester met all his requirements for the perfect rifle. True. but it was partly based on speculation, his highest confidence lay in the .318 ~ "We now come to what I would take to Africa if I had to go through the whole thing again
under the same set of conditions. I would base my battery on a Win- chester .308 Model 70
burning a cartridge loaded with a homogeneous bronze or Monel metal bullet , of the form
as worked out by Kohlbacker. At the same time, I would have a .318 barrel to fit the same
stock and a supply of 250-grain solid conventional lead- filled steel-jacketed bullets, just
in case any unforeseen snags arose from the use of homogeneous bullets in the .308." - WDM Bell ,American Rifleman 1954 Bell on the .318 WR : "Then coming down the scale we reach the .318 with its four-diameter 250-grain bullet.
This is a killer. It holds its course through almost anything and is superior in this respect
to all other bullets I have tried. For oblique shots into large animals it is quite the best
(muzzle velocity 2400 feet per second). I have a .318 weigh- ing seven pounds ten ounces
exactly, when empty. The deadliest weapon of the push bolt type known to me..." - WDM Bell, American Rifleman 1954 Dennis D. Lyell in his book 'The African Elephant and its Hunters' 1924 writes; "If I was going back to hunt in Africa I would buy a couple of .318 Mauser
Action Magazine Rifles, for I believe this is a perfect size as an all round rifle and
notwithstanding the critics who have not always had practical experience
as a backing to their opinions, I am no believer in heavy rifles which are usually
somewhere in the rear when most wanted."Commander Longden. "In 1909 Longden went to The Lado Enclave, right from the start he got excellent
trophies his best was an enormous elephant with tusks of 141 and 139 pounds
which he shot in 1911. He once wounded an elephant which charged him and
was unable to stop it with the 450 NE he was using. The elephant caught him
and began to batter him, and his gun bearer managed to kill it with a brain shot
from the .318 Westley Richards. He was in a critical state and so carried across
the Nile to the post of Wadelai where he died. He shot between 60 – 70 elephant."(source: WR website)
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Hard to know the truth, but when you're shooting 20 - 30 elephants a day,
if you miss one, no one really notices...
Uganda, Ethiopia and The Lado Enclave. In 1911 he moved to West Africa (Liberia)
where there were no regulations on hunting elephants or other species. On this trip
he left his Mauser 7mm at home and brought with him a Westley Richards .318, at
the end of six months he had shot twenty-seven elephants."(source WR website) "I was using at that time a very light and sweet working .256 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine weighing only 5-1/4 pounds. With this tiny and beautiful little weapon I had extraordinary luck, and I should have continued to use it in preference to my other rifles had not its Austrian ammunition developed the serious fault of splitting at the neck. After this discovery I reverted to my well-tried and always trusty 7mm. Mauser."
--Bell of Africa
John You sure thats from 'Bell of Africa'? it looks like a quote from chapter eight: 'The Lado Enclave' page 94, W.O.A.E.H.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
I am wondering how he escaped malaria and a whole gamut
of parasites and diseases in Africa. IIRC, Bell didn't escape them and had to convalesce for a couple yrs before resuming his safaris.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052 |
Starman,
Yes, I am sure the quote about Bell's .256 came from his book Bell of Africa--and yes, it's from Chapter VIII, "The Lado Enclave."
Are you unaware that a quote from a chapter of a book is also a quote from the entire book?
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,943
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,943 |
I remember reading somewhere that years after his retirement,Bell returned to Africa and tried the 308 with solids on dangerous game and nearly got himslef hurt doing so.
Does anyone else remember this story?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,366
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,366 |
I found Bell's article to be a very interesting read. Regardless of ones opionion or experiences with different cartridges I certainly would not discount anything in the article.
drover
223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.
24hourcampfire.com - The site where there is a problem for every solution.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,366
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,366 |
I found Bell's article to be a very interesting read. Regardless of ones opionion or experiences with different cartridges I certainly would not discount anything in the article.
drover
223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.
24hourcampfire.com - The site where there is a problem for every solution.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 805
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 805 |
I think of all the human traits that are bothersome, chief among them is to measure truth or recitation of same by the meager standards of their own abilities or experiences.
Bell and Keith, of days long past, are frequent targets of this kind of analysis. We would hear the same about Jerry Miculek if we did not have video and digital measurements to prove it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,679
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,679 |
I've lost 2 deer in previous years hunting with my 45/70 useing a 405 grain speer. Those two deer are the only game animals I have ever lost.
I have never lost a deer hunting with my 223 useing a 55 ttsx
Furthermore, the game that I have recovered with both cartridges have proved the 223 to be more lethal on deer and death runs were shorter as well, shot placement being equal....heart and lungs
Over the years I have found that shot placement bullet construction, and sufficient velocity kills game dead.Period! I have found caliber size to have very little if ANYTHING to do with that equation
Trystan
Last edited by Trystan; 12/15/22.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,950
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,950 |
I conclude a small high velocity FMJ bullet can brain an elephant, maybe a rino, or even a Cape Buffalo. However, a big bore hitting a big bear broadside will make a hole for them to bleed out through the muscle and fat. Same with plains game. Big hole in the chest makes them bleed out faster, trail easier to follow. A small bore must hit exactly where needed for a clean kill.
I've read in Africa, they want big bores to follow blood trails in the dirt and dust.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,914
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,914 |
a long time ago I read bell sating that if a rifle will hit a monkey orange at 100 yards/ paces / or meters it was got hunt with or that was his shooting ability can't remember witch one
|
|
|
|
|
548 members (257 mag, 10Glocks, 222Sako, 163bc, 16Racing, 1badf350, 59 invisible),
2,524
guests, and
1,317
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,190,674
Posts18,456,096
Members73,909
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
