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I am going to purchase some hard cast lead bullets, 158gr SWC, and load up some target/plinking rounds for my GP100 357 mag.
Being new to this, I have been doing a lot of reading, and I now know that you have to match the "best" or "most-appropriate" Brinell harness to the muzzle velocity you plan on shooting to avoid/minimize "leading".

I know I will need to do my testing to come up with some good "fits" that do not lead-up too badly, but am looking for some recommendations from experienced folks.

So, what Brinell factor do you recommend I purchase for the following muzzle velocity ranges:
800 to 1,000 fps
1,000 to 1,200 fps


Also, who is your favorite hard cast lead bullet supplier? Looks like they all have approx the same price, but no doubt some are higher-quality and better customer service?

Thanks for your suggestions on this!

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Bnh 12 for up to 1000, Bnh 18-20 for magnum velocity. Some say Bnh15 is good enough but for 357 mag 158 @1250 I use Bnh18 from Missouri Bullet Company. Lasercast and Magnus are also good.

Addendum not necessary but I just use the same bullet for all velocities as I had some swaged cast from Hornady that leaded my GP100 something fierce even at 38 special speeds.

Last edited by Swifty52; 11/20/22.


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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Bnh 12 for up to 1000, Bnh 18-20 for magnum velocity. Some say Bnh15 is good enough but for 357 mag 158 @1250 I use Bnh18 from Missouri Bullet Company. Lasercast and Magnus are also good.

Addendum not necessary but I just use the same bullet for all velocities as I had some swaged cast from Hornady that leaded my GP100 something fierce even at 38 special speeds.

Thanks much for your info, Swifty!!

:-)

Crab


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"hardcast'' IMO is a useless term, undefined. Or I have never seen it defined. So, to get the best results...accuracy and zero leading your bullet needs to obturate slightly to seal properly (gas cutting/leakage causes leading). First off you need to know the Bhn of your bullets. Get a Bhn tester, or read up on the use of drawing pencils to determine hardness. Cast Boolits forums is your friend here. Example...let's say you bought bullets of Bhn 15 (Lyman #2 alloy)...what pressure load do you need for Bhn 15 to go plastic and seal the bore? Constant 1440 x 15= 21,600 psi (not cup).
If you research your loading books that list pressure, like Lyman, you can find a load that will make your bullet work.
Unfortunately, to further confuse the issue, my experience is almost the opposite of Swifty's. When I have leading issues (very very seldom) I either increase the charge or go with a softer bullet. But, I am not operating at his speeds and pressures, and if you are on the upper end of power in your cartridge, I'd listen to him. I stay pretty much in the low to mid power levels...all my custom molds are built to drop the right dimension bullet of wheelweights and 5% tin...giving around a 12 Bhn. Mostly because my revolvers and rifles are well over a hundred years old and designed originally for black powder.


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Good info you gave though I do believe your math may be flawed. Good read.

https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

There is a formula for optimal bullet hardness which is simple and it is worth knowing:

Optimum BHN = PSI / (1422 x .90)

The PSI of your reloads is published in the reloading manuals. Take a typical .45 ACP load, using a 200-grain LSWC bullet – 5.0 grains of Bullseye. This load develops 900 FPS and is in common use among IPSC and IDPA gunners. The reloading manual shows that the pressure generated by this load is 20,000 PSI. So, the formula for optimal bullet hardness is

20,000 / 1279.8 = 15.62

There it is! For this application – shooting a 200-grain LSWC at 900 FPS requires that you use a bullet with a BHN of 16 to 18 (round upwards a couple of BHN points for flexibility.)



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I always went with the theory that leading in the forcing cone is caused by the bullet being too hard for the the velocity it is used at and leading at the muzzle is caused by the bullet being too soft for the velocity it is used at. Pretty simple but it has worked for me.

Missouri Bullets has bullets for either 38 sp. load velocities or .357 velocities


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If you go with powder coated bullets, you can give up some hardness, or increase the velocity. Powder Coating helps put cast bullet shooting into another dimension! memtb


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With "hardcast" alloys, bullet size/fit becomes a lot more critical. The reason I got into casting was because I bought various commercial cast products, and realized it was a crapshoot when it came to accuracy and leading.

Matching the alloy to the task helps a lot, as softer alloys obturate more easily, and thus will not allow as much gas blow-by, which is a usual cause of leading. Too-soft alloys also cause leading for the same reason, when pushed harder than the alloy can handle.

If buying commercial cast, you need to think about how fast you want to shoot them. Most handgun loads do better <15 Brinell, which is not classified as "hardcast." It helps to know what size works best in your gun, and hopefully buy that size. In your GP 100, that would be the size that snugly fits the chamber throats. And the "bevel-based" bullets typical of commercial cast, while making for easier loading, CAN allow gas blow-by, causing leading and fliers.

You may luck out, and the random bullets you buy work well. No way to know until you buy, load, shoot.

Last, I should say that powder-coated bullets cover a lot of sins, and seem to shoot better when the fit isn't best, or the alloy is too hard or too soft, and a few other smaller pieces of the puzzle. If I didn't know what size my gun preferred, and didn't know what alloy would likely be best for my application, and I didn't want to worry about the flat-base v. beveled-base v. gas-checked thing, I would avoid lubed bullets and buy powder-coated, then just load and shoot them.


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10 to 12 Bhn is where I'd want to live, unless I planned on shooting lengthwise through schools.


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Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
With "hardcast" alloys, bullet size/fit becomes a lot more critical. The reason I got into casting was because I bought various commercial cast products, and realized it was a crapshoot when it came to accuracy and leading.

Matching the alloy to the task helps a lot, as softer alloys obturate more easily, and thus will not allow as much gas blow-by, which is a usual cause of leading. Too-soft alloys also cause leading for the same reason, when pushed harder than the alloy can handle.

If buying commercial cast, you need to think about how fast you want to shoot them. Most handgun loads do better <15 Brinell, which is not classified as "hardcast." It helps to know what size works best in your gun, and hopefully buy that size. In your GP 100, that would be the size that snugly fits the chamber throats. And the "bevel-based" bullets typical of commercial cast, while making for easier loading, CAN allow gas blow-by, causing leading and fliers.

You may luck out, and the random bullets you buy work well. No way to know until you buy, load, shoot.

Last, I should say that powder-coated bullets cover a lot of sins, and seem to shoot better when the fit isn't best, or the alloy is too hard or too soft, and a few other smaller pieces of the puzzle. If I didn't know what size my gun preferred, and didn't know what alloy would likely be best for my application, and I didn't want to worry about the flat-base v. beveled-base v. gas-checked thing, I would avoid lubed bullets and buy powder-coated, then just load and shoot them.


^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^ Well said! memtb


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Yep. It's one of those counter-intuitive things. A bullet that fits the throat is your friend; if a bullet is too small and doesn't fit the throat no amount of extra hardness will prevent it from leading. A hard bullet that fits the throat certainly won't lead, but why waste precious tin/antimony (or the money to buy it)?

I wish I knew how that whole "hard cast" trend got started. (Well, I think I know how but will let it drop.)

Push a bullet through the throats of the revolver. If you feel good resistance with finger pressure you're ok. If they go through with no resistance get out your bore brush, you'll need it. Ignore barrel groove diameter, throats are what matter's (unless of course you have an oddball that was built with barrel groove diameter bigger than the throats in which case all bets are off accuracy-wise). You can certainly be more technical and drive a soft slug through the throat(s) and mic it and tell your bullet people that's exactly what diameter bullet you want. Additionally, make sure your expander button in the die expands the case mouth suitably too. Too small and the case itself will likely squeeze the carefully selected soft bullet down a bit, abrogating all your hard work.

Not entirely germane to revolver bullets, but I'm shooting very soft (1:20 and 1:25 tin:lead alloy) 200 grain GC'ed bullets through a .357 Maximum rifle. 1700+fps, regular old 50/50 NRA formula lube, zero leading and very good accuracy. Why/how? They fit the throat perfectly. Ditto my work with .32-40 schuetzen rifles - 1:30 and 1:40 alloys at 1400fps, and zero leading after literally hundreds of shots, again because of perfect bullet fit.

Last edited by gnoahhh; 11/20/22.

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Would this be a good choice for CC in the winter with lots of clothing? (MBW heat treated, BHN 22) from the description

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/357-lbt-150gr-fnb-gc/

Last edited by GhettoSportman; 11/21/22. Reason: brain fart

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Originally Posted by GhettoSportman
Would this be a good choice for CC in the winter with lots of clothing? (MBW heat treated, BHN 22) from the description

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/357-lbt-150gr-fnb-gc/

Wow, this went sideways. Not needed.

Gnoahhh, correct me if I am wrong but aren’t gas checks supposed to mitigate one of the main causes of leading with softer cast? I.E gas cutting of the base at high pressure.
As far as who started it, I got turned onto them hunting deer with a 41 mag back in the 80’s. HP’s gave very erratic performance on them critters unless you punched em within 25 yards, especially if you happened to hit bone. I can push a hard cast (18 Bnh) 215 damn near as fast as a 210 JHP w/o gas check or leading, devastating on deer sized critters out to 75 yards even hitting bone.



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Certainly hard enough for any revolver load but as repeated above, Fit is king. Order the .358, larger size is your best option among the two choices.

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BHN 22 is pretty much straight linotype. I can tell you from experience that it won't expand at all and behaves generally like fmj bullets. My suggestion: take a block of ballistics gel, or a thick pile of wet newspapers (where do people get newspapers anymore?), dress it in a wife beater t-shirt, hoodie, and a cheap made in China Walmart winter coat, and see what happens. I'm not being facetious, I truly would be interested in the outcome. For my purposes of shooting a couple hundred rounds per session at paper targets coupled with a haphazard approach to self defense, the soft-as-hell well fitted bullet is more than sufficient. (I don't have a concealed permit although they're easy to get here now, and my "house gun" is an old dead reliable Colt 1911 filled with 230 hardball, not at all germane to this discussion. But, again I can tell you from experience, I had more trouble with leading when I was bound and determined to make a .45 duplicate 230 fmj with a 230 RN cast from hard as woodpecker lips alloys. I was ignoring bullet fit back then out of ignorance and I said many a cuss word while brushing lead out of that barrel - fit is as important with an autoloader as it is with a revolver.)


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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Gnoahhh, correct me if I am wrong but aren’t gas checks supposed to mitigate one of the main causes of leading with softer cast? I.E gas cutting of the base at high pressure.
As far as who started it, I got turned onto them hunting deer with a 41 mag back in the 80’s. HP’s gave very erratic performance on them critters unless you punched em within 25 yards, especially if you happened to hit bone. I can push a hard cast (18 Bnh) 215 damn near as fast as a 210 JHP w/o gas check or leading, devastating on deer sized critters out to 75 yards even hitting bone.

You betcha. A plain base cast bullet can withstand a pretty fair amount of velocity/abuse, but there are definitely limits. That's where the gas check takes over. Where that demarcation falls is dependent on a lot of factors - bullet fit (hah!), type of powder (does it deliver a hard quick slap on the bullet's butt or does it impart a long slow shove), throat/forcing cone/bore dimensions and smoothness, etc.

As with most things in this man's world there are few absolutes and many variables. My point is that a fella should be aware of what makes a cast bullet tick, in general, and then apply that knowledge to specific applications while being aware that experimentation/deviation may be called for.

Cast bullet casting and shooting can be both a simple as hell pastime and a real mind f*cker. I guess it boils down to how much effort a fella wants to put into it, and what one's goals are. Just please don't accept old wive's tales, truisms espoused by the old guys leaning on the gunshop counter, and basic intuition as containing the answers. Lots of research has been conducted over the last couple decades by guys a lot smarter than me that dispels a lot of old myths - I simply pride myself with having an open mind and willingness to believe them, and then proving it to my own satisfaction.


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Boy, there are countless applications/scenarios/theories/real-life observations involving handgun bullets. "Big blunt and slow vs. Big and fast vs. light and faster vs. you name it". It's all good, and makes for fun/interesting debates and reading. It boils down to whatever fits one's personal parameters/needs.


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Boy, there are countless applications/scenarios/theories/real-life observations involving handgun bullets. "Big blunt and slow vs. Big and fast vs. light and faster vs. you name it". It's all good, and makes for fun/interesting debates and reading. It boils down to whatever fits one's personal parameters/needs.


Dang too simplistic of an answer, but definitely true. 👍



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