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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Coyote10
Now in say a 7 rum you run the 180, I'll bet you money, marbles, and chalk that bullet blows throw a deer at 150 to 200 yards and you'll be tracking.

How much money?

Not interested in marbles or chaulk.

Where did Coyote10 run off to?

We were fixing to make a bet.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
atse,

Have seen 140-grain 6.5 Bergers instantly kill prairie dogs at 500-800 yards--though the entrance hole was still a pin-hole, the exit wasn't. This was from a 6.5-06 at 3000 fps.

Have also seen "conventional" hollow-point boattails such as 85-grain Sierra GameKings fail to expand on PDs at 400-500 yards when started from a .243 Winchester at 3200+ fps. It didn't happen every time, but often enough.

Based on such experience, my bet is on the front end of Bergers collapsing over the "hollow point" of more conventional bullets mushrooming.

This is correct. The “hp” on an otm (ie berger) is there only as a result of forming the bullet. They are often pinched closed There is no means to initiate expansion on this type of bullet (ie a wide hp or soft lead nose). They penetrate a short distance in the much denser tissue and start yawing. The yaw increases surface area and keeps increasing and feeding back on itself. What generally happens is the tip will bend and cause the bullet to rupture or tumble if jacket is too strong. The more stable a bullet is before entering tissue the further it may penetrate before coming apart though it is still generally few extra inches (ie not feet). This type of behaviour is different than we are used to with hunting bullets that are designed to expand but very well documented and understood in wound ballistics literature as military bullets behave this way

This is why bergers penetrate a few inches then fragment. A thicker jacket may not fragment as easily though as
Bullet tumbles over it will still do damage. An increase in area does not matter if it comes from an wider front or side profile of bullet though one will generally penetrate more straight than other:)

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For the record I use and like berger hunting bullets. They are very effective and work as described. I have never used the target variety

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Berger says their Hunting bullets are lighter jacketed than their target bullets. That seems rather counter intuitive to me. Wouldn’t you want the tougher bullet for hunting? I don’t shoot Bergers (yet, ?) but I found this surprising. What’s the logic? I always thought target (Sierra Matchking and the like) and match bullets were not suitable for hunting because they were too frangible and now Berger says their hunting bullets are more frangible? Confusing
here is the deal, I say this from experience, berger hunting bullets are designed to penetrate 2" then violently expand. if you have a fast twist cut rifled barrel, the deeper, sharper cut rifling will sometimes compromise the jackets causing the bullet to not make it inside the animal before it expands causing a splash wound than ends with a crippled animal. I experienced this with a 6.5 gibbs fitted with aa kreiger cut rifled 8 twist barrel running a 140 at 3280 fps. lost a good buck, shot another that was recovered, and saw the results. called berger and was advised of the problem,, switched to the match bullets and now get the exact same results that folks get from button rifled barrels with hunting bullets. target shooters do not need expansion so they make the match bullet jackets thicker.


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The 215 hybrid target 308 at around 2800 mv is a dragon slayer. A very deadly bullet from coyotes to bull elk.

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Three mule deer with the 25-06 pushing the hunting version of the 115 grain VLD at about 3190 fps: 175, 230 and 400 yards - all instant drops. That was years ago when Berger first started promoting the VLD as a hunting bullet. They are mighty rough on coyote pelts too.

Then in 2021 I used the 180 grain Berger "Elite Hunter" from my 30-06 to drop a fat 3x3 muley buck at about 350 yards.

Have to say that I'm impressed with the accuracy & lethality of the Berger hunting bullets.

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target for us. Hunting is too frangible for our tastes. Target ones kill just fine.

As to dropping on the spot, thats all shot placement. I can't recall a Berger bullet dropping a deer for us, but we lung shoot and let em run.


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
From what I understand, the original Berger target bullet was being used by hunters, and they were reporting fantastic results. The bullet had a thinner jacket. The thinner jacketed bullet when shot by target shooters, who generally shoot bullets at higher velocities, would sometimes come apart in flight.

Berger thickened the jacket up to improved their target bullets.

The original Berger target bullet is now their Hunting bullet.
Interesting. Makes sense, but most hunters I know want velocity too. Are the hunting bullets still known to come apart mid flight?

The issue was more about the rate of fire in some types of Hi Power/Across the Course Matches.

I have used the target jacket 6.5mm 130gr AR Hybrid a lot on elk and deer in 6.5mm CM and it works great.

Keep in mind that bullet has a good sized void in the nose which seems to help with consistent expansion.


Rate of fire in competition? That explains the jacket failures at 200 slow fire in some Berger bullets before they adjusted. Ya know. 22 shots in 22 minutes... thats pretty high rate of fire and I"m sure is what caused the failures.... or the fact that other bergers we used were used in actual NTIT and never came apart.. 50 second target exposure drop as many rounds as you want.....


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When working up loads for my new at the time 26 Nosler, I noted their 140 VLDH load data topped out at 3,200 max.

I called Berger, talked to a tech. Told him I could push those 140’s faster than their max. He told me they didn’t recommend VLD Hunting bullets pushed beyond 3,200 fps, suggested I use their Target VLD’s.

I went with tougher bullets.

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Originally Posted by rost495
target for us. Hunting is too frangible for our tastes. Target ones kill just fine.

As to dropping on the spot, thats all shot placement. I can't recall a Berger bullet dropping a deer for us, but we lung shoot and let em run.

Jeff,
We had a discussion (via PMs if I recall) about this a while back. It turned out the Bergers you were using in your .308 for hunting WERE the same model Berger re-named the Hunting VLDs.

Just looking for clarification.

Best,
John


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
When working up loads for my new at the time 26 Nosler, I noted their 140 VLDH load data topped out at 3,200 max.

I called Berger, talked to a tech. Told him I could push those 140’s faster than their max. He told me they didn’t recommend VLD Hunting bullets pushed beyond 3,200 fps, suggested I use their Target VLD’s.

I went with tougher bullets.

DF

That's an option.

As the 140gr VLD is a legit 0 to 1000yd elk killer one wonders what could be better?


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
When working up loads for my new at the time 26 Nosler, I noted their 140 VLDH load data topped out at 3,200 max.

I called Berger, talked to a tech. Told him I could push those 140’s faster than their max. He told me they didn’t recommend VLD Hunting bullets pushed beyond 3,200 fps, suggested I use their Target VLD’s.

I went with tougher bullets.

DF

That's an option.

As the 140gr VLD is a legit 0 to 1000yd elk killer one wonders what could be better?

I'm settled in using the 140gr VLDH in my .260 and 6.5-.284. But mostly for antelope, deer, and cow elk. They work great for me.

For bull elk I take my .300 WM with 230gr Berger OTMs. They are hammers.

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cut riifled barrrels are hard on the thin jackets of the hunting bullets, they expand prematurely especialy in a fast twist. I get the exact same terminal performance from the match bullets in an 8 twist kreiger as most folks get using button rifled barrels with the hunting bullets. I run them at 3200 in a 6.5 gibbs.
and they shoot like this, 3 shoots at a lazered 752 yards.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Originally Posted by WYcoyote
.

For bull elk I take my .300 WM with 230gr Berger OTMs. They are hammers.


The 230’s work well at 840 yards on antelope too



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Originally Posted by Ridge_Runner
cut riifled barrrels are hard on the thin jackets of the hunting bullets, they expand prematurely especialy in a fast twist. I get the exact same terminal performance from the match bullets in an 8 twist kreiger as most folks get using button rifled barrels with the hunting bullets. I run them at 3200 in a 6.5 gibbs.
and they shoot like this, 3 shoots at a lazered 752 yards.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Wow!


Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
When working up loads for my new at the time 26 Nosler, I noted their 140 VLDH load data topped out at 3,200 max.

I called Berger, talked to a tech. Told him I could push those 140’s faster than their max. He told me they didn’t recommend VLD Hunting bullets pushed beyond 3,200 fps, suggested I use their Target VLD’s.

I went with tougher bullets.

DF

That's an option.

As the 140gr VLD is a legit 0 to 1000yd elk killer one wonders what could be better?

John,

The 140 6.5 has probably been my favorite Berger, even when they were called "Berger Match Grade" before the name-change to "Hunting." Have used other Berger Hunting VLDs from 115 grains on up, but the 140 6.5 has worked very well in cartridges from the 6.5 CM to .264 Winchester.


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The 140 vldh is what I started with when I built my first 6.5 Creedmoor over a dozen years ago. I found an awesome load after just a few charge adjustments of H4350 and then took it out later that week and dropped a 4x4 buck at about 220 with a behind the shoulder shot. It dropped incredibly quick and there was a part that exited. I've just stayed with that ever since.

My favorite Barnes for hunting are the 215g 308 hybrid target and the 6.5 140g vldh along with the .243 105g vldh. So I with use either hunting or target to hunt.

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Originally Posted by 805
Originally Posted by Coyote10
I think in a 6.5x284, 6.5-06, 280 rem, ect., under 400 yards or so they will hammer at those velocities, heck maybe even 500, but when you ramp up the powder and case volume those bergers do weird stuff inside 200. Just like I was talking about in another thread. My experience shows they don't open if you don't hit bone. But that's just one person. Now in say a 7 rum you run the 180, I'll bet you money, marbles, and chalk that bullet blows throw a deer at 150 to 200 yards and you'll be tracking. Run a 140 in it and you'll have bang flops. But, there will be some damage. It's all about finding the sweet spot. Some bullets work for some people better than others. But as far as damage goes, there is only one classification of dead.

If you put a 180 Berger from a 7RUM into a deer at 150-200 I’d be willing to bet no tracking needed especially if shooting shoulder.

I have seen well north of 100 head of big game killed with 180 Bergers started at 3100-3200 fps, coues deer muley bucks, bears, bull elk... very good performance
Quite a few more from 7 WSM at 3050ish.

A 100 yard shot on a coues is pretty rough. Seen DRT on bears and mule deer at 1000-1100 yards.
Very good combo.
These are both Orange box and hybrids.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
That's an option.

As the 140gr VLD is a legit 0 to 1000yd elk killer one wonders what could be better?

John,

The 140 6.5 has probably been my favorite Berger, even when they were called "Berger Match Grade" before the name-change to "Hunting." Have used other Berger Hunting VLDs from 115 grains on up, but the 140 6.5 has worked very well in cartridges from the 6.5 CM to .264 Winchester.

John,

It's a great choice for most all hunting.

I tend to use the 130gr Hybrid/VLD in the Creedmoor more these days to flatten the mid range in 18 inch barrels.

Very good terminal performance with that bullet at Creedmoor speeds and out to 600yds+.


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I can honestly say I have shot hundreds of the 300 grain .338 Elite Hunter bullets anywhere from 3150fps to 3250fps and haven't had any blowup. I've been shooting anywhere from 800 yards to 1500 yards with no problems.
One shot 1035 yards PA
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/aVxWjsaHYe7KvAr59[/img]

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