Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Berger Hunting vs Target

Berger says their Hunting bullets are lighter jacketed than their target bullets. That seems rather counter intuitive to me. Wouldn’t you want the tougher bullet for hunting? I don’t shoot Bergers (yet, ?) but I found this surprising. What’s the logic? I always thought target (Sierra Matchking and the like) and match bullets were not suitable for hunting because they were too frangible and now Berger says their hunting bullets are more frangible? Confusing

Heavier jacket with the Berger will more likely pencil the animal

From what I understand, the original Berger target bullet was being used by hunters, and they were reporting fantastic results. The bullet had a thinner jacket. The thinner jacketed bullet when shot by target shooters, who generally shoot bullets at higher velocities, would sometimes come apart in flight.

Berger thickened the jacket up to improved their target bullets.

The original Berger target bullet is now their Hunting bullet.

Interesting. Makes sense, but most hunters I know want velocity too. Are the hunting bullets still known to come apart mid flight?

The concept is a heavy for caliber bullet to maximize B.C. therefore slower speeds

It's not the linear velocity but the rotational velocity that matters. And IME zooking mid-air hasn't been a problem using Berger hunting bullets at high rotational velocity. I haven't pushed them to hyper-velocity in fast twist rifles, but just under 3000 fps in 8" twist barrels hasn't caused problems.

I have repeatedly had Berger target bullets fail to expand in a 1 gallon water jug. I would heed their recommendations for usage based upon my limited experience.

Yes, I’m talking .300 prc velocities of 2900-3000 ish fps out of an 8 twist.

I hunt with the berger hybrid targets in 105s in my 243. I have killed truck loads of critters big and small with them, and they perform exceptionally. Massive expansion and damage. I did shoot 1 coyote last spring that was a pencil through.Coyote still tipped over, just took a second. The bullets have been very accurate, and have given a good combo of good penetration, and lots of expansion and damage.

Pin drill in the hollow point to make sure they aren’t clogged and I’ve never had a Berger pencil on me.

Your understanding is spot on I remember when Berger did this, I was a member of Long-range Huntin .com when Berger made a post saying as much.

in my 257 Weatherby mag the 115 Berger hunter bullets is not a good bullet on bigger whitetail bucks i will never use them again in a faster cartridge rifle, Hammer bullets seem to be better so far on a bigger whitetail buck and actually the Hammer Hunter bullets were more accurate too in our 257 Weather mag. Brux barrel 10 twist #4 contour rifles. i am not impressed with Berger hunting bullets on game animals.

So stick with the hunting versions is the safe bet huh? Even though some seem to use the target versions for hunting…

That is very likely what happened on my one pencil through. Took a shell out of my pocket, and that hole may have been filled with lint. That and it went between ribs coming, and going...

Interesting comment Pete....Several of us use the 25 cal 115 hunting bullet in our 257s to take a few animals with excellent results and many DRTs:

I have taken 12 coues wt and one antelope to date. The other guys have taken another 15 coues, 4 mule deer, 6 elk another antelope and 2 javelina.

The issue was more about the rate of fire in some types of Hi Power/Across the Course Matches.

I have used the target jacket 6.5mm 130gr AR Hybrid a lot on elk and deer in 6.5mm CM and it works great.

Keep in mind that bullet has a good sized void in the nose which seems to help with consistent expansion.

This is true with a twist, when Berger first came out with their VLD's they had an ultra thin J4 jacket. I bought several hundred .308" 210gr VLD and .243" 105gr VLD. I never had the 210's blow-up coming out of the barrel but would blow-up on impact with very little or no penetration. The 105VLD's would blow-up 5 out of 10 shot's coming out of the barrel........I later found out this was more a cause of a Pac-Nor 3 groove barrel, they worked fine in 5 and 6 groove barrels.
These bullet's were not on the market very long, guessing maybe a month or two ????????
I had discussions with Mule Deer about these bullets and sent him the rest of what I had left several years ago that he was going to test, but between writing books and moose hunting I don't think he has gotten around to it yet.
I bought a BUNCH of the very next lot of 210gr VLD's and I am still shooting them to this day, most accurate bullet I have ever used in 300WM

maybe i got some poor bullets from Berger bullets ? the whitetail bucks i shot were big deer ? i don`t care if you like Berger bullets , i now use 103 gr. Hammer Bullets at a speed of 3700 FPS ,my old Ruger #1 shoots much better with Hammer bullets too so far had 2 bang flop animals one shot kills. the buck dressed 193 lbs. this year , that`s about the size of 2 or 3 Coues deer . son and i shot 3 big bucks with Berger bullets they dressed 185 lbs. ,210 lbs. and 225 lbs. all were weighed the same day these bucks were shot over 2 years. we now both use Hammer bullets we like the vapor trail when we pull the trigger > speed kills . >you wanna buy some Berger HUnting bullets ?

John in your experience , how does the Ar hydrid compare to the Regular 130 gr VLD hunting bullet? I have no complaints with the VLD but the Ar hydrid seems to be more available and it is good to have options.....

I've used the 215g 308 hybrid target on lots of game and it works incredibly well. Even on an antelope at 550 yards expansion was obvious.

Bb

That`s correct, because the bullet is just beginning to expand as it exits a standing jug. Lay the jug on it`s side and shoot the base to see the effect. The bullet does as advertized, IME, penetrate 3-5 inches, and then expand.
Shooting a Yote through the shoulders, 4-6 inches wide may not give full expansion, but shot head on at 365 yrds, a 140grn VLD Hunting bullet will darn near take the back end off, just my experience. ( 7x57, 2850 fps.)

AR hybrid works very well for killin in the 6.5mm 130gr.

I use both depending on availability.

You are not alone.
Several years ago.
Running a 7mm Mashburn.
Worked up a load with the 168g Berger hunting bullet.
Very accurate.
Decent sized freezer doe 250 yards.
Normal sized entrance.
Off side was a horror show.
Right out of a John Carpenter horror movie.
Disgusting.
Just like the descriptions I've read.
Bullet entered probably went an inch or two and then
Exploded.
Biggest exit hole ,if that's what you'd call it, I've ever seen.
Yes I know an example of one.
One was enough .

dave

I started using them in milder rounds about 12 years ago. I sought out cartridges that would push the 140 6.5 vld at 2600-2950 fps. I've had great luck and due to the high bc I have long range velocity retention that insures expansion.

Anxious to use the 6/45 I just built to shoot 95 grain vld bullets at about 2550 fps. Going to test that one for expansion soon hopefully to see how it does. If I shot stuff that was going over 3000 fps I'd try other bullets probably.

That's a gem of a rifle. I was wondering how you were making out with it 30338.

If I recall correctly, the Bergers don't expand by having their HP open up like a typical HP but by having the hollow nose collapse and the integrity of the bullets comes apart at that point. This explains the 3" of penetration before they grenade.

with a little respect , bullet going into a body 3 inches on a small young deer or small deer down south is different than 3 inches on an old harden whitetail Northern buck or a big old northern mule deer buck that dress 175 to over 200 lbs.. i have shot in the jell type blocks at Federal Cartridge it is the same as a moving animal with bones either. in a small deer with a rifle that shoots under 3,000 FPS i believe that`s fine then .

No one cares what you believe, and tens of thousands of animals bigger than small deer have been killed with Bergers. End of story.

That is correct. But if the tip was plugged,would that keep the bullet from imploding? I am not sure, but think it might, at least on a small critter like a coyote. As mentioned above the bullet that failed to expand, went between the ribs entering and exiting. Pinholes on both sides. Could have just been an anomaly too. Shoot enough critters, and you will see some weird things.

atse,

Have seen 140-grain 6.5 Bergers instantly kill prairie dogs at 500-800 yards--though the entrance hole was still a pin-hole, the exit wasn't. This was from a 6.5-06 at 3000 fps.

Have also seen "conventional" hollow-point boattails such as 85-grain Sierra GameKings fail to expand on PDs at 400-500 yards when started from a .243 Winchester at 3200+ fps. It didn't happen every time, but often enough.

Based on such experience, my bet is on the front end of Bergers collapsing over the "hollow point" of more conventional bullets mushrooming.

I think in a 6.5x284, 6.5-06, 280 rem, ect., under 400 yards or so they will hammer at those velocities, heck maybe even 500, but when you ramp up the powder and case volume those bergers do weird stuff inside 200. Just like I was talking about in another thread. My experience shows they don't open if you don't hit bone. But that's just one person. Now in say a 7 rum you run the 180, I'll bet you money, marbles, and chalk that bullet blows throw a deer at 150 to 200 yards and you'll be tracking. Run a 140 in it and you'll have bang flops. But, there will be some damage. It's all about finding the sweet spot. Some bullets work for some people better than others. But as far as damage goes, there is only one classification of dead.

Ya,they have been great bullets. Killed lots, and lots of coyotes with em, wolves, antelope, and several big bucks. I really like them.

CARE ? OH WE CARE, its a decent bullet as long as you shoot under 3000 fps , believe ? no i see what a mess this bullet does in a powerful rifle with some speed and recoil . i assume you shoot a smaller cartridge with lighter recoil and or under 3,000 FPS. this bullet will not work in my rifle i seen the results what a mess, but go ahead and use it on game .that`s the real truth end of this story.

I’ve saw this same thing multiple times on broadside coyotes but quartered at or away wow it will about cut them in half. .284 168 gr. VLD hunting bullets.

I personally have had very good performance with them. So far, all animals killed with 7mm bullets. 140 to 180 grn. Have not had oppertunities with 25 or 30 cal bullets, so far.

How much money?

Not interested in marble or chaulk.

If you put a 180 Berger from a 7RUM into a deer at 150-200 I’d be willing to bet no tracking needed especially if shooting shoulder.

I’ve personally used the Bergers in 6mm 95vld and 105 hybrids, 6.5 140 hybrids, 270 150VLd, 7mm 168VLD,180 hybrid,195EOL and 30cal 230hybrids and all but 2 animals I’ve shot was DRT. One deer went maybe 5-10 yards stumbling backwards and a cow elk went about 15-20 yards sidehilling downward.

I do pin drill all of them now but have only taken 2 animals with them and same results. DRT.

Berger bullets seem to have it's share of "haters". In my mind it's usually a matter of not understanding the limitations they have. I use a 7 SAUM for a lot of my hunting. I'm using a 180 VLDH bullet at 2900 fps. I ALWAYS check the points for clogged tips. Some boxes have had as many as 10% clogged. Either drill those out or use them as practice rounds. Last 3 trips to Africa that rifle has taken well over 30 head of plains game including 3 eland. 1 shot kills on all except 1 eland bull. That was a huge Livingston eland at 75 yds shot on the shoulder. I think he was close to going down when I hit him again. He was significantly bigger than my cape buffalo!
Lately I've been using a 6.5 SS with a 156 gr Berger at 3000 fps. First 8 shots at big game animals resulted in 8 dead animals. Thats pronghorn and deer. Part of the secret to Bergers is to use heavy for caliber bullets. The 156 in the .26. 180 in the .28. 215 or bigger in the .30's Ideally keep the speed under 3000 fps. If you run a 180 gr one in a .30 Nosler at 3200 fps, well splatter at close ranges is likely. A lack of penetration and a lost animal. Are they perfect? No they are not. If we use them as designed then the results will be very satisfactory. One trip to Africa I had 2 different PH's ask what bullet I was using. They were impressed.
Another PH in Tanzania expressed a distrust of Bergers. After a 20 min discussion with me he made the comment that he wouldn't have a problem guiding me while using them.
Bruce

Good post!

Where did Coyote10 run off to?

We were fixing to make a bet.

This is correct. The “hp” on an otm (ie berger) is there only as a result of forming the bullet. They are often pinched closed There is no means to initiate expansion on this type of bullet (ie a wide hp or soft lead nose). They penetrate a short distance in the much denser tissue and start yawing. The yaw increases surface area and keeps increasing and feeding back on itself. What generally happens is the tip will bend and cause the bullet to rupture or tumble if jacket is too strong. The more stable a bullet is before entering tissue the further it may penetrate before coming apart though it is still generally few extra inches (ie not feet). This type of behaviour is different than we are used to with hunting bullets that are designed to expand but very well documented and understood in wound ballistics literature as military bullets behave this way

This is why bergers penetrate a few inches then fragment. A thicker jacket may not fragment as easily though as
Bullet tumbles over it will still do damage. An increase in area does not matter if it comes from an wider front or side profile of bullet though one will generally penetrate more straight than other:)

Lou

For the record I use and like berger hunting bullets. They are very effective and work as described. I have never used the target variety

Lou

here is the deal, I say this from experience, berger hunting bullets are designed to penetrate 2" then violently expand. if you have a fast twist cut rifled barrel, the deeper, sharper cut rifling will sometimes compromise the jackets causing the bullet to not make it inside the animal before it expands causing a splash wound than ends with a crippled animal. I experienced this with a 6.5 gibbs fitted with aa kreiger cut rifled 8 twist barrel running a 140 at 3280 fps. lost a good buck, shot another that was recovered, and saw the results. called berger and was advised of the problem,, switched to the match bullets and now get the exact same results that folks get from button rifled barrels with hunting bullets. target shooters do not need expansion so they make the match bullet jackets thicker.

The 215 hybrid target 308 at around 2800 mv is a dragon slayer. A very deadly bullet from coyotes to bull elk.

Bb

Three mule deer with the 25-06 pushing the hunting version of the 115 grain VLD at about 3190 fps: 175, 230 and 400 yards - all instant drops. That was years ago when Berger first started promoting the VLD as a hunting bullet. They are mighty rough on coyote pelts too.

Then in 2021 I used the 180 grain Berger "Elite Hunter" from my 30-06 to drop a fat 3x3 muley buck at about 350 yards.

Have to say that I'm impressed with the accuracy & lethality of the Berger hunting bullets.

Regards, Guy

target for us. Hunting is too frangible for our tastes. Target ones kill just fine.

As to dropping on the spot, thats all shot placement. I can't recall a Berger bullet dropping a deer for us, but we lung shoot and let em run.

Rate of fire in competition? That explains the jacket failures at 200 slow fire in some Berger bullets before they adjusted. Ya know. 22 shots in 22 minutes... thats pretty high rate of fire and I"m sure is what caused the failures.... or the fact that other bergers we used were used in actual NTIT and never came apart.. 50 second target exposure drop as many rounds as you want.....

When working up loads for my new at the time 26 Nosler, I noted their 140 VLDH load data topped out at 3,200 max.

I called Berger, talked to a tech. Told him I could push those 140’s faster than their max. He told me they didn’t recommend VLD Hunting bullets pushed beyond 3,200 fps, suggested I use their Target VLD’s.

I went with tougher bullets.

DF

Jeff,
We had a discussion (via PMs if I recall) about this a while back. It turned out the Bergers you were using in your .308 for hunting WERE the same model Berger re-named the Hunting VLDs.

Just looking for clarification.

Best,
John

That's an option.

As the 140gr VLD is a legit 0 to 1000yd elk killer one wonders what could be better?

I'm settled in using the 140gr VLDH in my .260 and 6.5-.284. But mostly for antelope, deer, and cow elk. They work great for me.

For bull elk I take my .300 WM with 230gr Berger OTMs. They are hammers.

cut riifled barrrels are hard on the thin jackets of the hunting bullets, they expand prematurely especialy in a fast twist. I get the exact same terminal performance from the match bullets in an 8 twist kreiger as most folks get using button rifled barrels with the hunting bullets. I run them at 3200 in a 6.5 gibbs.
and they shoot like this, 3 shoots at a lazered 752 yards.

The 230’s work well at 840 yards on antelope too

Wow!

John,

The 140 6.5 has probably been my favorite Berger, even when they were called "Berger Match Grade" before the name-change to "Hunting." Have used other Berger Hunting VLDs from 115 grains on up, but the 140 6.5 has worked very well in cartridges from the 6.5 CM to .264 Winchester.

The 140 vldh is what I started with when I built my first 6.5 Creedmoor over a dozen years ago. I found an awesome load after just a few charge adjustments of H4350 and then took it out later that week and dropped a 4x4 buck at about 220 with a behind the shoulder shot. It dropped incredibly quick and there was a part that exited. I've just stayed with that ever since.

My favorite Barnes for hunting are the 215g 308 hybrid target and the 6.5 140g vldh along with the .243 105g vldh. So I with use either hunting or target to hunt.

Bb

I have seen well north of 100 head of big game killed with 180 Bergers started at 3100-3200 fps, coues deer muley bucks, bears, bull elk... very good performance
Quite a few more from 7 WSM at 3050ish.

A 100 yard shot on a coues is pretty rough. Seen DRT on bears and mule deer at 1000-1100 yards.
Very good combo.
These are both Orange box and hybrids.

John,

It's a great choice for most all hunting.

I tend to use the 130gr Hybrid/VLD in the Creedmoor more these days to flatten the mid range in 18 inch barrels.

Very good terminal performance with that bullet at Creedmoor speeds and out to 600yds+.

I can honestly say I have shot hundreds of the 300 grain .338 Elite Hunter bullets anywhere from 3150fps to 3250fps and haven't had any blowup. I've been shooting anywhere from 800 yards to 1500 yards with no problems.
One shot 1035 yards PA
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/aVxWjsaHYe7KvAr59[/img]

When i was shooting 1000 BR, we had a guy with a 308 Warbird, 32" barrel...
At the time 210 Bergers were the biggest they made. He tried them and rarely would all 10 rounds make it to target.
Ended up with 240 Sierras.

I have killed a bunch of coyotes using Berger 65 grain bullets out of a 243. I'd have to check my records as to the velocity, but it was a fast load. They were labeled as being Match bullets, and are HPBT's. I do not recall ever shooting and not finding a coyote, as they were DRT.

Good accuracy I assume?

Very good accuracy out of a couple of Remington 700's.

I been flinging the 210 vld target in my ultra since they were first introduced. Never had an animal run after 1 shot. Guess they don’t know the difference between target and hunting haha

I’ve shot probably 50 deer with a 105vld target from very close to many hundreds of yards. Zero complaints. I couldn’t find any more so I bought 200 of the 105vld hunters. Loaded some up, Same powder, primers, base to ogive measurement. At 100 they shot amazingly well. Like high .1’s. But at 600 my old vld targets shoot about 2” groups and the hunters were shooting 4.5-5” groups….. I played with the powder charges bit but groups were all about the same at 600. I guess I’ll start moving the bullet and see if I can get the groups back down.

Comments/ideas welcomed!

I think the bullets the same except for the size of the hollow point. The hunting bulllets have a larger opening. The target bullets would pencil on coyotes past about 600 yards.

Oddly enough the 6mm 105 target bullet is actually LONGER than the hunting version but Berger is listing the BC’s higher on the hunting bullet…. Not sure as to how or why that’s possible. If the weather ever clears up I’ll get back to shooting them and hopefully get my groups back down with the hunting vld.

Really? Have you ever tried to stick the point of a small safety pin down the "hole" of a Hunting VLD? All that I've tried that on wouldn't allow the pin to even enter the "hollow point."

You are not alone.
dave

Spot on 💯

Having seen more than 50 had of big game fall to 180s from na 7mm RUM I will tell you you're completely wrong. Elk, bears, whitetail, antelope.... the 180 is impressive. I have either shot or been present when shot game killed at 100 yards to 1050 yards. Under 250 yards is messy. DRT with lots of trauma.
This has proven to be an amazing combination.