If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
The partition in these rests very far forward, so you don't get dramatic expansion, but enough to create a larger diameter permanent wound cavity. You'd obviously lose a little penetration, but I don't think it's enough to matter. I'd definitely do some testing before I adopted a load.
One aspect of terminal ballistics physics that a lot of people seem to miss is that it takes energy to deform a bullet. The energy spent on deforming a bullet is energy it doesn't have to destroy tissue. If the bullet doesn't deform, all the energy it has goes into destroying tissue. Bullets that resist deformation don't necessarily create smaller wound channels, either. That is a function of their fluid displacement properties.
And how many hammers would a blacksmith go through if the hammer was as deformed as the piece being hammered? How many more hammer blows would be required to shape something?
Like I said, most people don't grasp the physics of terminal ballistics. Thanks for making my point.
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
I use the 200 grain 10mm a-frames and the 180 grain 357 mag a-frames.
Tell me what you've experienced, that counters the superb penetration and killing power I've witnessed from these excellent handgun bullets.
There's an interesting youtube video I can't post with this tablet, "10mm Underwood Hard Cast Vs Extreme Penetrators for Bears"
"Camping places fix themselves in your mind as if you had spent long periods of your life in them. You will remember a curve of your wagon track in the grass of the plain like the features of a friend." Isak Dinesen
I didn't make your point. You are being way too simplistic on a very dynamic event. The blacksmith hammer thing is a stretch. Both are equally hard
The Blacksmith analogy is actually good. If the Hammer deforms then it isn't moving the metal that you are hitting as it should
A non or minimal deformity bullet will maintain more speed as it penetrates through the tissue and bone
And that retained speed will be lost without doing much as it whistles past the exit hole...
And the anvil keeps the hammer from moving through the piece being worked. Huge differences IMO.
With a flat point bullet exits you've as much damage as needs to been done. I've shot a lot of game with hard flat point bullets and they kill very well
I want exits if I can get them
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I didn't make your point. You are being way too simplistic on a very dynamic event. The blacksmith hammer thing is a stretch. Both are equally hard
The Blacksmith analogy is actually good. If the Hammer deforms then it isn't moving the metal that you are hitting as it should
A non or minimal deformity bullet will maintain more speed as it penetrates through the tissue and bone
And that retained speed will be lost without doing much as it whistles past the exit hole...
And the anvil keeps the hammer from moving through the piece being worked. Huge differences IMO.
With a flat point bullet exits you've as much damage as needs to been done. I've shot a lot of game with hard flat point bullets and they kill very well
I want exits if I can get them
I insist on exits...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Using double tap hardcast 320 grain 44 mag, finishing shots through the necks of moose and caribou over the years, the wound channels were unimpressive. The animals just look at you, confused what all the noise is about and continue to suffer. The controlled expansion of a swift a-frame handgun bullet, really big bulls tense up, then die immediately. The Swifts make it all the way to the offside hide.
As a musher, my biggest threat are pissed off winter moose. I can't use hard cast for fear of an exited bullet killing my dog on the offside of the moose. When a moose comes to stomp, they get tangled right into the gang lines and tug lines.
24hourcampfire....... Where alaskans are schooled everyday, about what they should use in their own backyard.
Using double tap hardcast 320 grain 44 mag, finishing shots through the necks of moose and caribou over the years, the wound channels were unimpressive. The animals just look at you, confused what all the noise is about and continue to suffer. The controlled expansion of a swift a-frame handgun bullet, really big bulls tense up, then die immediately. The Swifts make it all the way to the offside hide.
As a musher, my biggest threat are pissed off winter moose. I can't use hard cast for fear of an exited bullet killing my dog on the offside of the moose. When a moose comes to stomp, they get tangled right into the gang lines and tug lines.
24hourcampfire....... Where alaskans are schooled everyday, about what they should use in their own backyard.
I've shot Alaskan moose and grizzly bear with LBT LFN flat point hards casts with immediate results. I've also taken Bison that weighed a ton with one shot and the results were immediate.
I've killed too much game with them with excellent results to know that they are effective if the correct bullet and hardness are used.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
The partition in these rests very far forward, so you don't get dramatic expansion, but enough to create a larger diameter permanent wound cavity. You'd obviously lose a little penetration, but I don't think it's enough to matter. I'd definitely do some testing before I adopted a load.
One aspect of terminal ballistics physics that a lot of people seem to miss is that it takes energy to deform a bullet. The energy spent on deforming a bullet is energy it doesn't have to destroy tissue. If the bullet doesn't deform, all the energy it has goes into destroying tissue. Bullets that resist deformation don't necessarily create smaller wound channels, either. That is a function of their fluid displacement properties.
Are you 100% certain that a 200 grain 10mm hard cast bullet will create a significantly larger crush cavity in vital tissue than a 200 grain 10mm Swift A-Frame? If so, how did you gain knowledge of the Swift's crush cavity?
I recall JJ Hack relaying his experiences with handguns and bears. He obviously has as much experience working with and around with bears as likely anyone here, black bears for the most part. He said that almost without fail the reaction of a bear that was shot with a hollow point from a handgun caused the bear to stop and “bite” at the wound where as a bear shot with a heavy hardcast didn’t react despite the bullet getting into the vitals. The hollow point would cause the bear to slow the down and bite at the entrance wound thereby “distracting” it long enough for more accurate hits. He relayed that he did NOT get the same reaction when the bear was shot with hard cast and usually the bear didn’t even react and definitely didn’t slow down or stop to turn and bite whatever was biting him.
Anecdotal information I know but it’s informed by his years of real world experience.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
I recall JJ Hack relaying his experiences with handguns and bears. He obviously has as much experience working with and around with bears as likely anyone here, black bears for the most part. He said that almost without fail the reaction of a bear that was shot with a hollow point from a handgun caused the bear to stop and “bite” at the wound where as a bear shot with a heavy hardcast didn’t react despite the bullet getting into the vitals. The hollow point would cause the bear to slow the down and bite at the entrance wound thereby “distracting” it long enough for more accurate hits. He relayed that he did NOT get the same reaction when the bear was shot with hard cast and usually the bear didn’t even react and definitely didn’t slow down or stop to turn and bite whatever was biting him.
Anecdotal information I know but it’s informed by his years of real world experience.
Hard cast bullets and jacketed bullets have to be adequate for the task
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
I use the 200 grain 10mm a-frames and the 180 grain 357 mag a-frames.
Tell me what you've experienced, that counters the superb penetration and killing power I've witnessed from these excellent handgun bullets.
What kind of dumbfuuck asks a question like that?
"Killing power".....from a handgun producing maybe 1200fps.
I just don't speak your kind of stupid. Sorry. I speak physics.
Hard cast bullets and jacketed bullets have to be adequate for the task
Obviously but with all things being equal his experience was that first round hits with HP caused the bear to slow down or stop completely to bite at the wound. When the same thing happened and hard cast was used the bear didn’t react to the hit like they did with the hollow points. If time is of the essence and one type of ammo buys me more time then I would venture to say that THAT is the bullet most “adequate for the task”.
Both bullets were “adequate for the task” but the reaction from the bear was the point. 👍
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
