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Originally Posted by irfubar
Does make you wonder if the barrel interior finish has bearing on Berger results? Maybe a rough barrel has harmed the integrity of the bullet jacket and it expands on the surface rather than penetrating a few inches before expansion?

It is thought provoking logic. The main rifle I am talking about performed fine on game with the old 140 AMAXs, but did this with 2 different lots of 147 ELD-Ms.
[Linked Image from ]

This also doesn’t explain why in that rifle I get an occasional Berger that breaks bone seemingly fine and acts like a conventional bullet. To add to the randomness, I recovered 2 from last year’s caribou that are (a guess) 40% retained weight, core intact, never hit bone other than maybe a rib and didn’t make it past the first half of the broadside bull. I hit him 3 times in the chest and I still had to cut his throat 5 minutes later though he was comatose. I HATE having to watch critters die like that. All bullets do weird things but it seems like bergers have more of a track record for it, for me at least. Maybe my particular rifle does have something to do with it.



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All this confirms what I determined a long time ago.

I do what works for ME…..


But as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Phil. 4:13

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Originally Posted by T_Inman
Originally Posted by irfubar
Does make you wonder if the barrel interior finish has bearing on Berger results? Maybe a rough barrel has harmed the integrity of the bullet jacket and it expands on the surface rather than penetrating a few inches before expansion?

It is thought provoking logic. The main rifle I am talking about performed fine on game with the old 140 AMAXs, but did this with 2 different lots of 147 ELD-Ms.
[Linked Image from ]

This also doesn’t explain why in that rifle I get an occasional Berger that breaks bone seemingly fine and acts like a conventional bullet. To add to the randomness, I recovered 2 from last year’s caribou that are (a guess) 40% retained weight, core intact, never hit bone other than maybe a rib and didn’t make it past the first half of the broadside bull. I hit him 3 times in the chest and I still had to cut his throat 5 minutes later though he was comatose. I HATE having to watch critters die like that. All bullets do weird things but it seems like bergers have more of a track record for it, for me at least. Maybe my particular rifle does have something to do with it.

3 groove barrel with wide lands?


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6 groove, though I have no idea if the lands are “wide” or not.

Lilja 1/8.

Is that good or bad, in this context? I honestly have no clue.



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Originally Posted by Daveh
I know they work but 3250 It made me second guess…
Working up loads for my 26 Nosler, I noticed that Berger data had loads at 3,200 max. I called, talked to a tech, told him I could push 140’s a lot faster than that. He told me they don’t recommend pushing their Hunting VLD any faster, suggested I use their target version with heavier jacket.

I shut down VLD testing in that round, went with tougher bullets.

I had noticed with other rounds that the VLD made the famous pencil hole entrance (actually hard to find) and several exit wounds from frags with chest shot WT’s. It did kill’em pretty quick.

I’ve move on.

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Originally Posted by T_Inman
6 groove, though I have no idea if the lands are “wide” or not.

Lilja 1/8.

Is that good or bad, in this context? I honestly have no clue.

I've gathered from comments on this site that three groove barrels with wide lands stress bullet jackets more. I have no personal experience with them .


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
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Thanks Mathman. I will look out for comments such as those in the future.



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You ever tried the 139 Scenar?

Might be a good one for you.


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Originally Posted by beretzs
You ever tried the 139 Scenar?

Might be a good one for you.

If that is in reference to me, I have 400 of the 139 Scenars all from the same lot.

Due to the component shortage though, last year I loaded what I had on hand, which were the 135 bergers. I still have 150 or so loaded, so I plan to use them for the foreseeable future despite my poor experiences with them. Another reason I haven’t loaded the Scenars is that I still can’t find much for powders though admittedly I haven’t looked too much the past few months. That, and I find working up a load, figuring out dope, etc. is a lot of work that I kind of dread. I am wayyyy more of a hunter than a shooter.



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Yup. It was directed at you.

Makes sense since you have dope but I couldn’t hardly sleep using a bullet it didn’t trust and had so many bad experiences with.


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Originally Posted by beretzs
You ever tried the 139 Scenar?

Might be a good one for you.
+1

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Originally Posted by beretzs
Yup. It was directed at you.

Makes sense since you have dope but I couldn’t hardly sleep using a bullet it didn’t trust and had so many bad experiences with.

Solid, solid point. The best I can say is if I could find RL22 or IMR4831 locally I would have been more motivated to get the Scenars up and running this year.

I should also mention I now only use this rifle/bullet combo on caribou and sheep, NOT moose or elk though I did take an incidental griz with it last year. Took 2 shots IIRC and I didn’t find any even though they didn’t exit, however they worked OK in that instance and he only ran 100 yards and piled up. Caribou are the size of smallish cow elk. I keep a few other rifles with set and forget scopes and conventional bullets at my mom’s house in Montana for when I fly down for elk and mule deer. I’ll figure something out to get the Scenars up and running this coming summer because you’re right. Having little confidence in equipment isn’t a good thing.

Last edited by T_Inman; 11/29/22. Reason: Memory was jogged


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I guess another ‘excuse’ is that I have found the 135 Classic that I have loaded now to be a bit tougher than the 140 VLD I used up until a few years ago, but admittedly have only taken 4 critters with the 135. Take that for what it is worth.



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The barrel very well might have an effect on Berger VLD expansion.

Have used them, or seen them used, in the following rifles/cartridges:

Douglas: .257 Roberts, .264 Winchester Magnum, .30-06.
E.R. Shaw (now just Shaw): 6.5-06
Pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester: .257 Roberts
Lilja: .300 Winchester Magnum


The bullets included the 115 .257, 140 6.5mm, 168 and 185 .308s. Don't know if the barrel on the pre-'64 M70 was original. It was Walt Berger's rifle, and was rebarreled at some point, as he'd had it a long time.


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I think it was that 6.5-06 that sent me down the same path of 6.5-06 and 140 vld. It was a great path and I had great success with it.

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I’ve killed with Scenars and VLDs and vote for the latter. Of course my 6.5 CM is really hard on bullets 😊


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Bergers kill fast. If you want to photograph a used bullet, shoot Barnes 😊


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
After not all that much early experience with Bergers, I started deliberately placing them at least 3-4 inches behind the shoulder. NONE of those resulted in more meat damage than a knitting needle--in fact it was usually hard to find the entrance hole. And they killed far more quickly than conventional "mushrooming" bullets--because they expanded violently INSIDE the chest cavity.

You (and others) still evidently refuse to understand that Bergers work VERY well--as long as they're not used like conventional bullets. Why anybody would use them LIKE conventional bullets, by shooting them into shoulders at shorter ranges, is beyond me. But I will admit that, as noted, it took me a few animals to understand that difference.

If you want to shoot big game in the shoulder at close ranges with high-velocity bullets, then there are better bullets. I've used plenty of those bullets--but fail to grasp why so many Berger critics keep bitching about how they act differently than, say, Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSXs, when all of this has been described in detail a number of times by various people.

This.


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If you might have to break a moose’s hips, shoot another bullet. At 640 yards the bullet speed is close to 2000 fps. Anyone know how a VLD behaves at lower speeds?


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I meant my 6.5 C drops to 2000 at 650. Sorry.


I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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