Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Alaska 10MM Solid Copper Bullets

Crush cavity? Tissue damage? We're talking bear defense. If the discussion turns to crushed flesh and tissue damage, it'll be yours.

We're talking handgun bullets, here. You better hope the hole is LONG enough to break some shiit down. If you're hoping for a quick bleed-out, again, it'll be yours.

That looks like a non answer to me. But it could be my senility keeping me from finding it.

Years ago when I had my shop I had a lot of guys that were regular regulars. 😂. I got to know many guys and hunt with a few as well but mostly I got a lot of post hunt reports and pictures of their success or lack there of. One guy in particular bought a lot from us through the years and was a decent guy. He hunted the same spot for decades for bear high in the Methow/Okanogan area and he’d taken some beautiful bear over the years there. He told me that he carried his Sig .40 with FMJ “for penetration”. I told him that most target ammo is pretty anemic and I’d be wanting something with more power but he wasn’t concerned. A week or so later he came into the shop with pictures of the bear he’d killed. He told me that he’d dropped it with a 200 yard shot from his 7mag but when he got up to it he was still alive. He used his Sig to finish it but he said that after 6 rounds of FMJ it wasn’t fazed so he shot it with his rifle at the base of the skull which did it. Upon skinning the bear all 6 FMJ’s were in the fat on the offside of the hide. All 6 .40s/w rounds never made it into the thoracic cavity, never hit anything vital and didn’t penetrate adequately. I saw the pictures or I wouldn’t believe it myself.

On the other side of the spectrum I’ve used some of the lightweight extremely fast “boutique” loadings and I’ve been extremely impressed with their performance. A good friend of mine killed a predatory black bear that was stalking him and harassing him for hours while he was steelhead fishing on the Skykomish river one day. He had been playing cat and mouse with this bad bear trying to get back to the truck but the bear had cut him off. Finally after hours of this the bear was making its move and my buddy was convinced that this was the culmination of the stalk that bear was engaged in. My buddy had his pistol out and was as ready as he’d ever be as the bear started towards him in charge mode…my buddy said he fired one shot and was stunned when the bear literally folded mid stride. He put 2 or 3 more into him but he was dead. He was using his Glock 23 and RBCD lightweight high speed ammo. None of his shots hit the bear in the head or CNS. His first shot best he can figure hit the bear in the chest and destroyed the heart that was what stopped that charge. He reported it and waited for WDFW to show up. The game warden couldn’t believe that the ammo could be that effective but he was so impressed/curious about it that a week or 2 after that incident he came into my shop and bought some of the same ammunition that my buddy used since we were the only distributor of that ammo line on the West Coast.

I’ve used some of the lightweight high speed RBCD ammo on vermin like raccoons and the wound is incredible. One raccoon I shot with a 90gr .45acp in my Glock 21. I hit it just behind the front left shoulder when I got up to it the right side of the body was gone….it quite literally blew it in half. It’s the ammo I use to make a small gun into a big gun. It makes a .38spcl or .380acp into a seriously defensive weapon that punches far above its weight. The .380acp will penetrate 1/2” thick AR500 plates. The RBCD ammo would easily penetrate AR500 plates that would stop everything else. The only round other than RBCD that penetrated the AR500 plates was the 7.62x51 AP with the steel penetrator but it was a tiny hole and had no lethality after penetrating the plate where the RBCD 7.62 hole was about twice the caliber size and penetrated a 2x4 behind it.

Quick and to the point:

A handgun is underpowered for Brown bear protection.

Since we don’t have 500 nitro expresses on us all the time, we carry handguns.

We need the most penetration as possible, since a handgun doesn’t reliably penetrate deep enough in all conditions.

Any energy expended doing anything other than pushing the bullet forward is wasted.

Defending against a Brown bear charge is different than hunting. It will be done at extremely short distance, and a heart shot, or lung shot isn’t quick enough. The bear may die in the next few seconds or minutes, but you’ll be fuqed up too. The bear needs nerves shot, which are protected by bones.

Heavy, non expanding bullets will always be the best bet with a handgun for bear defense, since they will penetrate furthest.

Phil Shoemaker shot and killed a 900 pound Brown bear that charged him and his fishing clients with the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman load 147 grain 9mm flat point hard cast. The bear bit at every entrance hole.

I've shot grizzly with hard cast and if the correct bullet is used the effects are immediate

Sorry bub, but your bullets get the crappy review that I expected:

https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-38-rbcd-ammo-vs-the-box-o-truth.362/

Light for caliber is never the right answer when I comes to penetration.

Why do I want hard lead for bullets? Because depleted uranium is too hard to come by.

I’m not super experienced when it comes to bear defense. I’ve scared bears off before , but that’s it. I have talked to a few guys who have first hand experience, and also have read more than a few field reports.

One man, who I trust implicitly, said he shot a brown bear, freshly wet out of the water with a 12 Ga magnum brenneke slug, and it didn’t penetrate the wet fur. Since then he carries a 16” 458 WinMag rather than a pistol.

Take that FWIW

Really hope NOT to have first hand experience stopping frisky bears with a handgun. I’d be very grateful for entrance holes in charging bears; exit holes would be heavy 😊Thanks for the input!

Member klikitarik has told a story of a brenneke failure-to-kill on a young brownie.


Put that into perspective of the fans of the buck-slug-buck, etc method.

Iron, I've chatted with you about this before but to back up klik:

I helped a fella track a massive bull moose shot in the neck with a Brennke black magic slug. Moose was knocked down, and got right back up. Blood trail dried up in about 30 mins of tracking. About 45 mins later, finally caught up to the bull. He was bedded down and still got up!

Once downed, I measured the distance from behind the ear:

That brenneke hit four fingers width below the ear and I have skinny Indian fingers!

Many of them heavyweight hardcast jam in pistol vartridge lever actions as well, therye loaded too long and too blunt in the nose. I had both a model 92 45 colt and a marlin 1894 44 mag that would fail to feed some of these douche-bullets.

In 10 mm, I've seen these blunt hardcast turn multiple semi-autos into jammomatics

If a fella hasn't seen piss-poor field performance from a hardcast bullet, then I guess some of us who have must be crazy......

I'm not saying that the hardcast bullet that you used failed, because some do fail. But the correct hardcast will work very, very well.

Hardcast aren't all equal in performance just as all jacketed bullets aren't equal.

I've had hardcasts failures because they wouldn't penetrate straight because of nose shape. But with the correct hard cast you will excellent results, that is why test media is a vital tool. If the bullet tracks straight and penetrates straight then if is worth trying in the field.

Actual results on game is all that truly matters

I do think about feeding ramp snags with some of those flatties. Testing will tell.

These last few posts bring out some valid points.

1)Reliabilty of function for a defense pistol. Doesn't matter if its for defense against humans or against bears, if you need it, it better be reliable. That is why I mentioned buying a lot of bullets and ensuring reliability in a semi auto platform.

2)All bullets are not equal, especially cast which uses different alloys, different shapes, hardness, brittleness, etc. The exact same bullet but cast at a different alloy can mean the difference in effectiveness. Ive seen brands of commercial cast bullets come apart and fragment because they were too brittle. Some brands are known for being cast with the right alloys at the right hardness, and with many uses in the field, are known to reliably penetrate heavy bone. Do your research and ensure you are picking a company known for casting bullets that are effective. That is a plus of the solid copper bullet, I haven't experienced them fragmenting when hitting heavy bone.

Same goes with jacketed bullets. Some that should be effective at first glance are not. When I did my testing on cow elk skulls, I tested a boutique 200 grain flat nose full metal jacket bullet, marketed as a defensive round in the woods against some dangerous game. This bullet had an extremely thin brittle jacket, and the lead alloy core was also very brittle, resulting in the bullet coming apart in the first skull.

Regards,
Manny

Spot on 💯%

IMO, most commercial lead bullet companies make their stuff too hard. Maybe because they want them looking good after they’re shipped (no dings as they get banged around and bounce off each other in the box). I’ve seen advertised BHN of 22, which is basically 100% linotype. That’s too brittle. I cast my own, where I alloy it to 15-18 BHN for a blend of toughness.

For any new bullet shape, of course it makes sense to test for reliability. I have a model 92 which shoots 335 gr 45 Colt loads perfectly, with a pretty wide meplat mould. I also have a G20 10mm that shoots 205gr truncated cone loads reliably as well- where commercial “bear ammo” was unreliable and inaccurate (which I believe was due to bullet shape and hardness).

I8 to 22 doesn't mean linotype or brittle necessarily

Mannyspb1
Could you please link to your cow elk skull test? I dimly remember it, it was informative and useful especially to this topic. Thank you

Hi Frank,
Not much more than what I wrote here other than the brand name, but here it is:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...derwood-hard-cast-flat-nose#Post16292439

Regards,
Manny

Thank you for adding that mannyspd1.

There would be a difference between hunting and stopping for sure IMHO. Hard cast for stopping. JHP for hunting in the RIGHT bullet. But now that I"ve shot a lot of deer and pigs with the Lehigh penetrators and defense solids I'm impressed on the killing ability. Yet to be seen on total penetration on something like a bear or moose trying to stop in a bad situation, but they at least won't loose weight and kill better on a broadside shot than any hard cast bullet I've ever used before. By far.

And as Mainer points out feeding can be an issue but I'd think anyone carrying a handgun for serious work or defense had really tested them out. I know buffalo bore 10mm in our Glocks works just fine. Had some issues with another round in a 460 rowland and ends up the springs on the followers were key, new springs and function was fine. I was kind of amazed at that... but is what it is.