Home Forums Reloading Shotshells History question

Breaking down some very old 12 ga Winchester shells. They have card wads and plastic strips around the shot. When did Winchester convert from strips to plastic shot cups?

DD I remember the cheap dove and quail loads having the wrap well into the late 80's maybe early 90's

Thanks for that. I didn't start reloading shot shells until around '99, and it was all cups. But then I never found need to take old ones apart. Old shells gave me a puzzle.

Laffin' here. About half way thru the process and have made some interesting discoveries. Many of the shells appear to have been stored wet somewhere along the way. Rust and corrosion on the case head. Oddly enough, one shell that is in near new condition is an old Winchester paper hull 00 buckshot load. Filed away for future use.

That said, it appears at this point, that regardless of the exterior condition, all of the primers would pop if hit with a firing pin. OTOH, much of the powder pours from the case in large chunks. Well, some of this stuff is 30-40 years old and it got wet.... Funnier still, some shells crack open and I'm greeted with WHITE gunpowder. Ain't supposed to be that way. Only the Gods would know what to expect if it were fired.

My message to any that are interested. If you have old ammo that spent time in the water, be careful.

Left out a funny. One of the shells, WW 2-3/4” 12 ga 00 buck...was missing a shot cushion wad. It had 12 pellets...

Drum roll please........I'm finding bright red powder in some of the WW shells.

Well, it's getting quite interesting. I've dissected about 350 rounds and have but 60 or so remaining. Oddities abound! Some of you may be familiar with Red Dot powder. Mostly black flakes with a few red ones floating in the mix. Well, I cracked open a few that were the opposite. RED powder with a few black flakes. WTH?

Another lot of WW shells have a very light grey cast. I recorded the charge volume from a couple different lots. One using this powder was 22.8 grains. Another held a charge of 13 grains. Both were from 3-1-8 or 7-1/2 loads


The variety of wads makes me giggle.




None of the black colored powder was salvageable. Clumped it was, presumably due to the infusion of moisture. Most but not all of the cases had indication of significant exposure to water along the way.


A visual of what I am dealing with.


That said, I have saved all of the shot. Most of it is corroded and is stored separately, but I have about 10 pounds of #7-1/2 and 6-7 pounds of #8. In addition, I salvaged OO buck from about 9 shells. An outrageous find in the mix was a paper Winchester 00 Buck shell in near pristine condition. I set that aside for use in the future.

I tried to salvage some primers but that didn't work out. Next time I burn some brush my neighbors will think it must be July 4th.



Life is short my friends, get the most out of it when you can!

DD

I haven't disassembled shotgun shells since I was a kid. Cool thread Dan.

Good Lord Dan..those are some OLD shells.
I started reloading shotshells in 1975 and did not use these wads and "cups". Was already using the one piece wad cups then. Main difference between then and now were the hulls and primers. Remington and Federal had paper wads and Winchester AA were already full plastic. Remington took 157 primers, Federal and Winchester used 109 primers. I still have a few of the originals and they still shoot but have never been wet.
Very interesting project you have going.
Mickey

I remember buying the green Western dove loads and I think I still have some hulls laying around... I did find a box of Winchester Super X (25 round yellow box) paper 0 buckshot a couple of months ago

something about this makes me think that there will be black powder & brass shoot gun shells will used in the end😁😃👍

When times are hard ya do what you gotta do! I saved the wads.

W-W intro'd the Mark X "high brass" compression plastic hull in the very early 60's, some say as early as 58-59, and they were initially loaded with fiber wads and a plastic sleeve. (My Gramps had a couple boxes of Mark X's hidden from me in the floor joists in his cellar, and it was definitely 1964 that I found them, and shot them up at sparrows and the like. It was a wonder I didn't blow up that rickety old single shot with those Mark X's which were a pretty hot load- a short magnum today. I was not a good kid.....) Remington was the first to offer a 100% plastic wad column, around the same time, which they called the "Power Piston" (and kept it forever afterward). Didn't take W-W long to come out with their own all-plastic wad column. Can't speak to Federal and their shenanigans. I do recall the el-cheapo W-W "low brass" game loads back in the 70's had a really thin plastic sleeve around the shot not much thicker than SaranWrap, and when they stopped that malarkey I don't know.

I started reloading shotshells in the mid-late 60's and being a cheap (poor) kid I went the old school route and loaded 12 gauge paper target hulls with Alcan wads - a .135 nitro card over-powder wad and either a 3/8" or 1/2" felt wad on top of that depending on the shot charge weight. Red Dot powder exclusively, and any dammed primer that I could squeeze into the hole. That stuff and an old Pacific DL-155 single stage loader kept the Old Man and I in fodder for backyard clay bird busting. Loaded them over and over until the paper hulls got pinholes right above the brass base or the crimps got so raggedy they wouldn't stay shut (but then a goober of melted wax or Elmer's Glue got them through one more firing).

Just this weekend I stumbled onto a huge pile of old shells (I don't know how many, but several hundred), mostly paper and all makes and sizes, that I long since forgot I had. I gotta sit down and cut 'em apart and convert the shot into bullets. If you want the powder, Dan, I'll mail it down to you!!

Winchester called it the "Mark V Collar". The "Dove & Quail" "Duck & Pheasant" "Upland" and "SuperX" were all still loaded with card and fiber plus Mark V until at least the late 90's. Other than steel shot loads, the first non-AA target loads to use one piece AA type wad was the Expert Field loads in CF hulls. The promo loads were still card and fiber until after the AA HS hull was introduced in the early 2000's. Winchester started using the HS construction, with cheaper materials, and AA wads for the promo loads.

Shot is $60 a bag, you probably have several friends who will gladly trade lead for shot.

The powder will be dandy for handgun plinking loads.

Good stuff guys, thanks!

Gnoahhh, save the postage, but thanks for the offer.

I quit reloading about 45 years ago. And it was Al power pistons in Remington and I can’t remember the Winchester name , but all plastic wads . I gave them to Toby, (12344mag)

Arghhh. I stand corrected - I was yacking about "Mark X" shells when actually they were Mark V. There's even an old box of them sitting on a shelf six feet away and I didn't look. Mea culpa...

Too late Dan. The powder is already in the mail. Look for a box painted with a skull and crossbones and a warning "Danger! Danger! Contains explosive materials. Please handle with care." I packed an old wind-up alarm clock in there also to give some sound effects to my warning label.

You may send a thank you note care of "U.S. Federal Prison, Lewisburg Penitentiary."

As for saving the shot, it's a cornucopia of mixed sizes and I know nobody anymore who loads their own. Far more valuable to me for pistol bullets, and I'm not gonna start mailing lead shot around the country.

In the same vein, my 92 year old landlord has about a half-ton of lead shot stacked out in the cold damp garage. Mostly #9's, and there so long that the bags are starting to rot. Left over from his skeet shooting days. Won't let any of it go - "I might need to load shotshells again some day." I figure when it becomes mine the bulk of it will be poured into my lead furnace too, or a "come and get it" sale on the Campfire.

I will send the note, I promise!

I separated the good shot from the bad and have about 10# of 7-1/2 and 6# of number 8 that is suitable for loading. Still shiny it is. Another load of about 8-9# is useful only for bullet making. Ironic in a way. Lead shot contains a fair bit of arsenic which makes it a good sub for WW alloy. Since lead WW are pretty much a thing of the past it will get used in the near future to blend with pure lead to harden it up for good use. Fella can never have too much lead.

My first venture into reloadiing shot shells, at age 14, involved a Mark V shell. My one and only shot gun was a Savage 94C 16 gauge. Somehow or the other I came into possession of a Winchester 12 gauge Mark 5 load of #6. I spent most of an afternoon disassembling the 12 gauge shell, driving out the spent and new primers with a nail, trimming the card and fiber wads, and reassembling in a once fired 16 gauge hull. I did have the good sense to tie the shotgun to a post and pull the trigger with a string. It was not very impressive, i.e. Mel Gibson's bad shell in Road Warrior, but I wouldn't stand still and let someone shoot me with one similarly reconstructed.

I have made use of more than a few pounds of oxidized shot by vibrating it for a few minutes in a brass tumbler, giving the shot a good blowing off with leaf blower, and adding a dash of powdered graphite and then mixing with clean shiny shot.

If you saw the degree of oxidation on this shot you might whistle a different tune. Mind boggling it is.

I remember loading paper shells in a 1 at a time Lee loader. Paper shells, felt wads and a dipper.
Slow but worked.
Fast forward till today to my RCBS Grand that cranks out a box in a few minutes.
Sadly eye issues have limited my shotgun shooting so the Grand will be sold in my spring moving auction.

As an aside, that powder makes good fertilizer.

So, I’m burning the remains of an oak tree, and disposing of case heads w/ primers that could not be salvaged. Can you say “ SNAP, CRACKLE AND POP!” Really loud?

Ok, I just said that. Did it help you at all?

Anecdotal story which has nothing (or very little) to do with this thread: A friend of mine actually has a pyrotechnics license (it's a local thing) and he spends many thousands of bucks each year on his personal backyard July 4 fireworks displays. His license gains him entry into a huge warehouse in Virginia that caters to the professionals. I was his chief assistant for many years, mainly because I shared a pyromaniacal lust for things that go "boom" (and I smoke cigars which are handy for lighting fuses)! A few years ago, for the annual bacchaniacal festivities, we loaded something over 10,000 Black Cat firecrackers on a hay wagon (as a prelude to the mortars and rockets we discharged over suburban Maryland), with a loooooooooong fuse, and I poured over that pile of fire crackers a gallon paint can full of smokeless powder I had salvaged from unknown reloads and other sundry suspicious ammo over the years. When the fuse burned down and that pile of flammables ignited the stuff ignited into a long loud continuous roar - rather like a jet taking off - and the fountain of flame burned hot pink 20 feet in the air. America!!!!

Wish I had been there, 'sounds' spectacular!

DD

Gee, I guess I got dropped off by aliens but I been loading shotshells on a mec 600 Jr's since 1967. It's as natural an act as eating , drinking and pissing. Don't know why I'd quit shotgunning or loading shells till I croak...mb

Lots to be said for the old 600 Jr. Back when I was shooting a crazy amount of trap/skeet/clays (which coincided with cheap shot prices) I did "The Mec Shuffle" every Wednesday night to build the ammo I would fritter away every Saturday and Sunday. That got old after a while and I snagged an old but serviceable Ponsness-Warren which made life easier. When I quit the craziness (due mainly to developing scoliosis in my back/neck, exacerbated no doubt by the slinging of a few tons of shot into the air) I sold the P-W but kept the 600 Jr. for the odd shotshell chore such as a box or two of duck/goose loads now and then.

A cavil: The Remington SP steel-and-plastic shotshell hull, and two types of Winchester plastic hulls (compression formed and "poly formed") were introduced in 1964.
--Bob